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Balitoropsis leonardi?
September 8, 2015
2:58 pm
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torso
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Hi

I got some small B. leonardi lately. First shipment was a deaster, we didn't find the reason. Perfectly packed.

Here some pics of the new shipment.CSC_7788.jpgImage Enlarger

 CSC_7793.jpgImage Enlarger

 CSC_7794.jpgImage Enlarger

 CSC_7796.jpgImage Enlarger

 DSC_7803.jpgImage Enlarger

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 CSC_7792.jpgImage Enlarger

 DSC_7800.jpgImage Enlarger

 DSC_7802.jpgImage Enlarger

 DSC_7775.jpgImage Enlarger

 About 5 cm long, very active and hungry. They came in very thin, as usual.

I follow the proposed classification by Kottelat as Balitoropsis. Thye certainly won't fit into Homaloptera. Tail fin seems to be asymmetric and the pattern doesn't fit perfectly with

http://www.aquarium-glaser.com.....ws_id=1404

Seem to be very close to A. normani.

Cheers Charles

September 9, 2015
1:12 pm
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Matt
Málaga, Spain
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Confusingly, some of the species that Kottelat placed in Balitoropsis are now in a revalidated Pseudohomaloptera, and this includes P. leonardi. Haven't edited the profiles yet, but see here: http://biotaxa.org/Zootaxa/art.....a.3926.1.2

Think your fish are Annamia though Charles, check out the elongate lower caudal-fin lobe and very compressed body shape. Also the colour pattern doesn't fit. Here is P. leonardi that we collected in Malaysia for comparison.

DSC_1051.jpgImage Enlarger

 DSC_1062.jpgImage Enlarger

Cake or death?
September 9, 2015
1:33 pm
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torso
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Hi Matt

Given the fact htat they came in from Vietnam I would agree: juvenile A. normani od A. sp. I added a working link to Glaser's presentation of the shipment. But they look different to mine.  Don't have a clue.

Cheers Charles

September 11, 2015
10:49 am
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Matt
Málaga, Spain
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Some variations in A. normani from different streams in Cambodia. Am guessing there's a fair amount of colour pattern variation within populations as well.

Population 1

Annamia-normani-Catieg-stream-Lom-phat-Ratanakiri-Cambodia-3.jpgImage Enlarger

 Annamia-normani-Catieg-stream-Lom-phat-Ratanakiri-Cambodia-2.jpgImage Enlarger

 Population 2

Annamia-normani-Cha-ong-stream-O-chum-Ratanakiri-Cambodia.jpgImage Enlarger

 Annamia-normani-Cha-ong-stream-O-chum-Ratanakiri-Cambodia-2.jpgImage Enlarger

 Population 3

Annamia-normani-Chruy-ampeal-stream-Ochum-Ratanakiri-Cambodia.jpgImage Enlarger

 Annamia-normani-Chruy-ampeal-stream-Ochum-Ratanakiri-Cambodia-2.jpgImage Enlarger

Cake or death?
September 15, 2015
11:46 pm
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torso
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I see the point. May be we'll know more when they grow.

Looking throught the archives I found this

http://ffish.asia/?p=none&.....38;id=1242

Seems I haven't got the only specimen back then

Cheers Charles

September 17, 2015
5:11 pm
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Matt
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Yeah I spotted that as well. Has anyone seen this kind of deformity in other balitorids?

Cake or death?
September 17, 2015
5:56 pm
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torso
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To have a overview about the classification situation I made a llist out of

Randall, Z.S. & Page, L.M. (2015): On the paraphyly of Homaloptera (Teleostei: Balitoridae) and description of a new genus of hillstream loaches from the Western Ghats of India. Zootaxa, 3926 (1): 57–86.

Balitoropsis ophiolepis
Balitoropsis zollingeri

Homaloptera bilineata
Homaloptera confuzona
Homaloptera ocellata
Homaloptera ogilviei
Homaloptera orthogoniata
Homaloptera parclitella

Homalopteroides avii
Homalopteroides indochinensis
Homalopteroides modestus
Homalopteroides nebulosus
Homalopteroides rupicola
Homalopteroides smithi
Homalopteroides stephensoni
Homalopteroides tweediei
Homalopteroides wassinkii
Homalopteroides weberi
Homalopteroides yuwonoi

Homalopterula amphisquamata
Homalopterula gymnogaster
Homalopterula heterolepis
Homalopterula modiglianii
Homalopterula ripleyi
Homalopterula vanderbilti

Pseudohomaloptera batek
Pseudohomaloptera leonardi
Pseudohomaloptera sexmaculata
Pseudohomaloptera tatereganii
Pseudohomaloptera vulgaris
Pseudohomaloptera yunnanensis

 As for annamia

Annamia normani
Annamia thuathienensis (species inquirenda) 

I'm actually collecting pics because there are certainly some spp. around. Mike sent me one of B. zollingeri seen on wetspot e.g. If somebodx knows more, go right ahead

September 18, 2015
5:22 am
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Plaamoo
Bellingham, Washington U.S.A.
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I got a few of these sold as "Vietnam Butterfly Loach" a few years ago.

 

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z229/bigsky_photos/DSC_4430_zpsyhft05dl.jpgImage Enlarger

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z229/bigsky_photos/DSC_4456_zpskdvsquzl.jpgImage Enlarger

September 18, 2015
12:30 pm
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Matt
Málaga, Spain
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That looks like a Pseudohomaloptera sp. to me Jim, but there are no records from Vietnam so if it really is from there it's an interesting one!

Charles, are you looking for images of the species in general, or only those that are being traded?

Cake or death?
September 18, 2015
2:08 pm
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torso
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Thanks Jim.

Both. Matt. The reason is this: with pics of described species we could at least get answers about the id of some traded species. And with pics of traded species it is sometimes possible to bring light into the situation. As we don't have all descriptions of listed species it is a work on a puzzle. Of course scientific work on the genetic relations would be better. But as continously new traded species ome in, we need some more material to compare.

Let's take Mike's species: pics of that species have been showed with different names. B. kweichowenis, B.k. gracilicauda, B. leveretti. With pics on the link that Mike mentioned we can eliminate B. leveretti. Looking at the ventral pics I would say: not B. kweichowensis and not a subspecies. Without a description of B.k. gracilicauda all is open. Given that the genus is Beaufortia we can't  decide wether B.k. gracilicauda, Beaufortia sp or one of the described species. Important could be pics of fry. As we don't have pics of B. kweichowensis we can't even conmpare with the fry of Mike's species.

The same situation with Annamia: one described species only with very different appearences in imported specimen, jubvenile and adult with different pattern (?)

About pics of fry: pics of Erromyzon sp. "red spots" are different to the few pics we have of young E. sinensis. For me definely a different species.

In Pseudogastromyzon the same situation: Pseudogastromyzon sp "red fin" is still not identified. P. laticeps or not? Next week I hope to have some specimen of Pseudogastromyzon sp "Lunar" here, which is a new species in import(?)

About Jim's cpecimen: not P. batek, leonardi, tateregani, yunnanensis

Cheers Charles

September 19, 2015
10:20 am
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Matt
Málaga, Spain
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Right Charles, maybe we can start a new thread to act as an image compendium of positively-identified species?

Jim's fish looks quite close to P. sexmaculata imo.

Cake or death?
September 19, 2015
11:33 am
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torso
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Hi Matt

Good idea, but what about the copyright-situation?

Jim's specimen is certainly not the species linked as H. leonardi/Glaser. As even my specimen don't look like H. leonardi I'm asking myself questions. Only positive point: they came in with the same shipment from Vietnam. No further answers to expect.

About "Vietnam butterfly loach": http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin.....1342804958

Annamia sp.? What about B. zollingeri?

"Vietnam butterfly loach" is just a make do seen on exporter-lists.

Cheers Charles

September 19, 2015
4:23 pm
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Plaamoo
Bellingham, Washington U.S.A.
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Mine came from Wetspot Charles. I think I ordered them direct but can't remember for sure. They have listed them several times.

September 20, 2015
6:32 am
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mikev
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A very nice discussion and sorry for not taking part so far -- a real overload.

One point if I may ... once you added annamia (and I think correctly, it is somehow related to h.leonardi) you open a door to vanmanenia (which seems close to annamia) and crossostoma (which is definitely close to vanmanenia per DNA). In fact I picked up magnificent looking loaches, 4" size, a few days ago, and am trying to figure out what they are ... annamia/vanmanenia/crossostoma are possibilities.

if the fish survives (long enough for taking photos), I'll show them.

September 20, 2015
11:16 am
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torso
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May be, that Formosania is genetically in reach, Mike, but in this case out of question. Vanmanenia for me too. In fact, Vanmanenia is an open question, as in Sewellia too a mess to which contributed Vietnamese "scientists".

To make the desaster complete: "The colour pattern of Vanmanenia species strikingly changes with growth" (Kottelat 2012)

As for Jim's specimen: ventral pic shows a head form as in P. zollingeri, unscaled ventral part too. But that's just a pic.

Means: for the collection of pics Vanmanenia and Formosiana are required too

Cheers Charles

September 20, 2015
11:45 am
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Kajsa12
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Here's one of my P. leonardi look-a-likes from 4 years ago.

They came in with a shipment of H. smithii from Java (that's what the shopowner told me)

 

http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr85/kajra7/T8_1.jpgImage Enlarger

 

http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr85/kajra7/T7_1.jpgImage Enlarger

September 20, 2015
4:39 pm
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Plaamoo
Bellingham, Washington U.S.A.
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These are already on the forum somewhere but here again are the best I have of my h. leonardi.
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z229/bigsky_photos/1_06_zpsnpugddek.jpgImage Enlarger

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z229/bigsky_photos/1_08_zpsbknnubna.jpgImage Enlarger

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z229/bigsky_photos/1crop_zpslvs1xdfm.jpgImage Enlarger

September 20, 2015
4:40 pm
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mikev
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Means: for the collection of pics Vanmanenia and Formosiana are required too

I believe so.... unless we can convince ourselves that Annamia and Vanmanenia are anatomically so different as not to be close relatives --- but I suspect they may be.

Incidentally it is known (DNA) that if you go further in this direction, you see lh.disparis / erromyzons / pseudogastromyzons.
The absence of DNA data for Annamia is really upsetting, it would have allowed us to see the entire layout. !

And blame Chinese scientists for this: they collected some DNA data for the Chinese species, but Annamia is not, so they did not bother to look at it. Racists.... :(

September 20, 2015
4:46 pm
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mikev
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something like this is true:

tree-balboot.pngImage Enlarger

September 20, 2015
5:22 pm
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torso
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Yep, Mike. Genetic analyses are really helpful. But that's just one side of the medal. Means: with that "tool" you can answer to questions at the genus/species-level. Other side is this: in the hobby we get constantly species we can't classify. Soemtimes we just have a coarse screen. It's ok if we dont' need further infos to have a good sleep. And to breed them is even the best in that hobby. But as we want to know too, we are not so comfortable in this mess.

Thanks for the last five pics, Jim. Classy P. leonardi.

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