LOGIN

RSS Facebook Twitter YouTube
GLOSSARY       

SEARCHGLOSSARY

A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

PROFILESEARCH

Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





 

Minimum search word length is 4 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Danio margaritatus-erythromicron hybrids?
July 15, 2013
10:40 am
Avatar
Matt
Málaga, Spain
Admin
Forum Posts: 8239
Member Since:
June 13, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Sparked by an interesting email received last week, does anyone here know what the fish pictured below might be, or is anyone aware of pics of confirmed D. margaritatus/erythromicron hybrids?

Danio-margaritatus-odd-male-JJ.jpgImage Enlarger

Cake or death?
July 15, 2013
5:04 pm
Avatar
kim m
Member
Forum Posts: 107
Member Since:
January 22, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Have you asked Johnny where he took the picture?

---------------------------- Best regards, Kim Kastberg
July 15, 2013
5:30 pm
Avatar
Thomas
Veteran
Forum Posts: 468
Member Since:
January 1, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Matt, there's a picture of a hybrid in DATZ 1/2008 "Perlhuhnbärbling trifft Blauband-Zwergbärbling". I' haven't this magazine anymore, so I can't help, sorry.

July 15, 2013
7:33 pm
Avatar
mikev
NYC
Community Helper
Forum Posts: 1134
Member Since:
January 11, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Very curious: did they find out if the hybrids are fertile? (For danios, the usual answer is no or not really)

July 15, 2013
8:24 pm
Avatar
BallAquatics
Tremont City Ohio, USA pop.640
Member
Forum Posts: 96
Member Since:
May 26, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hey Matt, when that photo was first displayed in the US magazine TFH, I sent a copy to Pete Cottle telling him I thought it was just such a hybrid.  He said it didn't look like any of the hybrids that he had seen while he was in Myanmar.  He sorted through his photos thinking he might have a hybrid photo, but no such luck.

I thought that it surly had to be... with the elongated body spots and that dead give-away tail spot for sure.  I even commented to Pete, that while I have always been against hybrid Danios, that if the margaritatus - erythromicron hybrids looked as attractive as this fish, that I might just have to produce some if just for my own amusement.

Dennis

July 16, 2013
7:15 am
Avatar
BillT
Eugene, Oregon
Veteran
Forum Posts: 228
Member Since:
September 10, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Go for it Dennis. Do a test.

 

Bill Trevarrow [email protected]
July 16, 2013
8:31 am
Avatar
Matt
Málaga, Spain
Admin
Forum Posts: 8239
Member Since:
June 13, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

kim m said 

Have you asked Johnny where he took the picture?

I haven't but I will, thanks Kim.

@BallAquatics it was actually Pete who had contacted me about this (admittedly with a different photo), and he says that the hybrids he saw in Myanmar were indeed fertile.

What did TFH refer to the fish as?

Cake or death?
July 16, 2013
1:32 pm
Avatar
Matt
Málaga, Spain
Admin
Forum Posts: 8239
Member Since:
June 13, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

It seems a whole load of these fish were imported to Europe as female D. margaritatus, which I think we all agree it isn't right?

Funny things going on with this species - there are males with weird fin patterning in the hobby as well.

Danio-margaritatus-male.jpgImage Enlarger

Danio-margaritatus-1.jpgImage Enlarger

Cake or death?
July 16, 2013
2:16 pm
Avatar
Rüdiger
Brunswick / Germany
Veteran
Forum Posts: 349
Member Since:
May 2, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Funny that you should mention the weird patterning as I have pondered this for quite some time now.

I have obvserved different 'stages' of pattern abnormalities. 

Here's a pic of a beginning break-up of the 'normal' pattern in a male.

Danio-margaritatus-male_0001.jpgImage Enlarger

But it occurs in females too.

Danio-margaritatus-female_0002.jpgImage Enlarger

I don't know if there are specimens with these pattern abnormalities in the wild and nobody I've spoken to had seen any when they were still imported in numbers.

Without any scientific data, I do suspect that it might be promoted by years of "hot breeding". Here's another pic, which shows a male suffering from yet another symptom of "hot breeding" on top of the changed pattern in anal and ventrals.

Danio-margaritatus-male-deformed_0003-1.jpgImage Enlarger

This is the last surviving male from a rescue mission. From 14 saved D. margaritatus, 9 showed severe deformities and all deformed had the aberrant fin patterns.

Regards

R.

If you must insist on living in a box ...... at least do your thinking outside.
July 16, 2013
4:22 pm
Avatar
BallAquatics
Tremont City Ohio, USA pop.640
Member
Forum Posts: 96
Member Since:
May 26, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Matt said

kim m said 

Have you asked Johnny where he took the picture?

I haven't but I will, thanks Kim.

@BallAquatics it was actually Pete who had contacted me about this (admittedly with a different photo), and he says that the hybrids he saw in Myanmar were indeed fertile.

What did TFH refer to the fish as?

Hey Matt, in the magazine it was refered to as Danio margaritatus... "Aquatic photographer Johnny Jensen offers an intimate look at his pair of celestial pearl danios (Danio margaritatus)."  The photo in the magazine is the same one you posted.

 

in typical TFH fashion, they simply ignored me when I questioned the photo. LOL  Here's the link...

http://forums.tfhmagazine.com/.....38;t=30379  That was when I asked Pete what he though about the photo.

Dennis

July 16, 2013
4:36 pm
Avatar
BallAquatics
Tremont City Ohio, USA pop.640
Member
Forum Posts: 96
Member Since:
May 26, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Here is a rather poor photo of a fish claiming to be a hybrid that was posted on my site http://www.celestialpearldanio.com.

http://www.celestialpearldanio.....e.php?id=4

Dennis

July 17, 2013
8:33 am
Avatar
Matt
Málaga, Spain
Admin
Forum Posts: 8239
Member Since:
June 13, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Rüdiger said

Without any scientific data, I do suspect that it might be promoted by years of "hot breading". Here's another pic, which shows a male suffering from yet another symptom of "hot breeding" on top of the changed pattern in anal and ventrals.

My suspicion also; it would be good to get more feedback on this. Guessing that none of the fish displaying these characters will turn out to be wild caught. Is it ok to add your pics to the species profile Rudi?

BallAquatics said

Here is a rather poor photo of a fish claiming to be a hybrid that was posted on my site

How common are these fish in the trade Dennis?
Cake or death?
July 17, 2013
11:03 am
Avatar
Rüdiger
Brunswick / Germany
Veteran
Forum Posts: 349
Member Since:
May 2, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

No problem Matt, as I said before, you may use any of my pics you want! :-)

I'd be interested too if more of the guys here have encountered larger numbers of severely deformed D. margaritatus?

The little guy in the pic above is actually the best looking of the whole lot (most probably the reason he's still alive Confused). Unfortunately I have no pics of the really bad ones.

Regards

R.

P.S. I sincerely apologize for the typo in "breading".Embarassed

If you must insist on living in a box ...... at least do your thinking outside.
July 17, 2013
12:47 pm
Avatar
coelacanth
Veteran
Forum Posts: 514
Member Since:
July 30, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

We've had no new stock in since getting our fish back in late 06, they're still looking good (as individuals age you get obvious symptoms of course), a few come through on display on a regular basis, we deliberately bred some for a planted nano a few months ago and they were all fine from memory.

July 17, 2013
2:18 pm
Avatar
Matt
Málaga, Spain
Admin
Forum Posts: 8239
Member Since:
June 13, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Rüdiger said

P.S. I sincerely apologize for the typo in "breading".Embarassed

Haha no worries, think we all like 'hot bread'. Laugh Thanks a lot for the pics will add them now.

As a result of this thread Johnny has made a new page for the fish on his website.

@coelacanth are some of the original fish still alive?

Cake or death?
July 17, 2013
3:00 pm
Avatar
coelacanth
Veteran
Forum Posts: 514
Member Since:
July 30, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Matt said

Rüdiger said

P.S. I sincerely apologize for the typo in "breading".Embarassed

Haha no worries, think we all like 'hot bread'. Laugh Thanks a lot for the pics will add them now.

As a result of this thread Johnny has made a new page for the fish on his website.

@coelacanth are some of the original fish still alive?

 

 

I like warm baps and soft muffins myself.

We don't know TBH, we very rarely have a loss in that tank, it's densely planted so there always the chance of an ex-fish being missed.

July 17, 2013
7:13 pm
Avatar
BillT
Eugene, Oregon
Veteran
Forum Posts: 228
Member Since:
September 10, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I do suspect that it might be promoted by years of "hot breeding".

 

What exactly is hot "breeding"? I am not familiar with that term.

 

In addition to bad genetics, body axis malformations can result from microsporidian infections. Symptoms like this are well known in zebrafish labs. Neon tetra disease is an example of a microsporidian disease. The infectious agent is small cells that live inside of the cells of the host except when as spores it can infect other cells. In zebrafish, these infections can result in the destruction of muscle and skeletal tissue leading to shapes like this arising later in life. A late in life appearance would indicate to me a disease rather than a genetic problem.

Alternatively, malformation problems like this can also arise for nutritional problems (not that I am expecting that people reading this would have poorly nourished fish). These would be expected to show up early in life rather than later and would be more difficult to distinguish from an early onset genetic problem.

Bill Trevarrow [email protected]
July 17, 2013
7:24 pm
Avatar
mikev
NYC
Community Helper
Forum Posts: 1134
Member Since:
January 11, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

In addition to bad genetics, body axis malformations can result from microsporidian infections.

Do you have any additional information on this, or hopefully some papers?

(I believe I have encountered this a few times, specifically in zebrafish but not other danios, initially attributed this to tb, but it does not seem the case)

July 17, 2013
7:41 pm
Avatar
BallAquatics
Tremont City Ohio, USA pop.640
Member
Forum Posts: 96
Member Since:
May 26, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Matt said 

How common are these fish in the trade Dennis?

Matt, I don't import fish for resale, but over the years I have purchased groups of these fish from 7 different sources to make up my breeding groups.  I have never seen one of these fish in the flesh, and only in the two photos that have been referenced.

I do have some very nice D. margaritatus and also D. erythromicron so perhaps this fall I'll have to set them up and see what the out come is.....

Dennis

July 18, 2013
3:41 am
Avatar
BillT
Eugene, Oregon
Veteran
Forum Posts: 228
Member Since:
September 10, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Do you have any additional information on this, or hopefully some papers?

There is a lot published on zebrafish infections, mostly because of reserch labs wondering what's wrong with their lab fish.

I am inferring the possibility of the same infection in these other Danios by the same disease organism with the same symptoms. Other than for zebrafish, there is almost no research on Danio fish diseases. The zebrafish disease researchers are however interested in finding their favorite diseases in related species and have done that on occasion.

A good general reference would be the zebrafish stock center's disease manual: "Diseases of Zebrafish in Research Facilities" which has several references in it.

The disease manual can be obtained at:

http://zebrafish.org/zirc/heal.....Manual.php

Microsporidiosis is in the protozoan section of the manual.

 

There is also information on mycobacteria in the manual. I think this most often becomes obvious when the fish get open sores or reddish areas. However, these symptoms alone do not a good diagnosis make.

Bill Trevarrow [email protected]
Forum Timezone: Europe/Paris

Most Users Ever Online: 246

Currently Online:
1 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Devices in use: Desktop (1)

Top Posters:

Stefan: 1567

Plaamoo: 1253

mikev: 1134

Malti: 1099

Mark Duffill: 1012

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 0

Members: 30288

Moderators: 0

Admins: 2

Forum Stats:

Groups: 4

Forums: 10

Topics: 4595

Posts: 36615

Newest Members: Brawny, qchris87, grayergroove, bhisma wildan, costeacristianalex

Administrators: dunc: 1323, Matt: 8239