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How To Repair Damaged Tissue
December 16, 2011
8:18 pm
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JazzBora150
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hi people its been a while since ive been here

lots of different things keeping me away

my new tank is almost complete just awaiting hood

but ive got a problem with my Heros severus he or she not sure which has been damaged quite badly imho
i would like to know how i repair the damaged tissue
what should i add to the water to aid recovery
the damage was right down to the meat the wound has been healing but very slowly and im worried an infection might happen

cheers

martin

December 17, 2011
3:28 am
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Plaamoo
Bellingham, Washington U.S.A.
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Keep the water as clean as possible. More water changes! Keep an eye on it for obvious infection. If infection occurs, then you have to decide to treat with antibiotics or not? Some might treat as preventative?? I really don't like to use them except for last resort.

December 17, 2011
3:17 pm
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JazzBora150
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if i have too treat with antibiotics is this done by treating individual fish or the whole tank?

the fish in question has been bullied by a larger fish
this now has ceased

December 17, 2011
3:42 pm
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Plaamoo
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How big is the tank? It's much easier & cheaper to treat a small tank. It will also save any adverse effects to your main tank, bio-filter etc, if you treat it in a hospital tank. But moving can be stressful and may even be the final straw to a weak fish. I'm not familiar with this sp. It would be good to get some other opinions. Good luck with it!

December 18, 2011
10:24 am
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Dave Argyll
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With severe damage i would be concerned about the fish's ability to control his osmoregulation. Addition of salt would help, but not if your main tank contained salt sensitive species. i think a hospital tank is the best soultion. There are so many different salt dose rates referred to and everyone has their own favourite that has been established through trial and error, my own standard dose for mild to moderate osmoregulatory support is 10mg (a heaped teaspoon) in 10 litres. but i have no experience with heros so you should research this.

i would also be worried that the fish's abilty to fight off bacteria will be seriously compromised, so an anitbiotic would be needed, although you could try Melafix which will have a mild antibacterial effect.

do you have a vet near you that is familiar with treating fish?

i have found that enrofloxacin (baytril) works very well as an overnight bath in a bucket (covered, aerated and heated!) and then return fish to the main tank or preferably hospital tank.

i have dosed at 10mg/litre of water, given as two or three overnight baths, given 3 days apart. For 10% Baytril, this dose equates to 1ml of the medicine in 10 litres of water.
(Baytril also comes in lower concentrations, 5% or 2.5%, you would need 2x as much or 4x as much respectively)

always use antibiotics under veterinary guidance /rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" /> /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" />

If your vet is interested refer him or her to this paper: Pharmacokinetics of enrofloxacin in the red pacu (Colossoma brachypomum) after intramuscular, oral and bath administration. J Vet Pharmacol Ther 20(2):124-8, 1997, a very useful paper, which suggests that the half-life for this medicine (in the pacu at least) is almost 30 hours. I extrapolated the dose rate i have used from this paper. The paper refers to a lower doserate used as a bath, but in order for the therapeutic level to remain high enough in the fish's tissues and blood for 2-3 days i tried using this at 4x the dose. so far i have had no fish that appeared to suffer toxicity from this higher dose.

if your vet would consider injecting the fish, that would be the most efficient way to administer the medicine but fairly stressful for the fish (and the vet /blush.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blush:" border="0" alt="blush.gif" /> ) and stress kills /sad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad.gif" />

hope your fish makes it!

regards
Dave

December 18, 2011
10:25 am
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Dave Argyll
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...............

December 18, 2011
9:08 pm
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JazzBora150
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sorry about the size of this photo but its the only one i have
the fact that it is a large photo will let you see the extent of the damage

[Image Can Not Be Found]

@Plaamoo the tank is my new 6ft tank that has been an on going project for the last few months

@dave argyll unfortunatley hospital tank not an option as for baytril this is something im familar with from my koi experiance it was usually injected in to the pectoral fin muscle

Attached files

[Image Can Not Be Found]

December 19, 2011
12:56 am
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Dave Argyll
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@dave argyll unfortunatley hospital tank not an option as for baytril this is something im familar with from my koi experiance it was usually injected in to the pectoral fin muscle
[/quote]

Baytril can be injected but bath works too in my experience. having said that, although its hard to tell from the pic, the wound looks fairly clean to me and smaller than i imagined, and although the skin is grazed open the underlying muscle looks intact and un-infected (infected wounds are often deeper ulcerated craters, where the bacteria which are often proteolytic, eat into the underlying muscle). if he were mine i would use melafix or possible something containing bronopol which also has an antibacterial effect and observe for day or two, if he is feeding normally and wound looks progressively better, treatment may not be needed, but intervene with Baytril if he seems to be going downhill

December 19, 2011
4:22 am
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Plaamoo
Bellingham, Washington U.S.A.
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The wound looks clean to me too. The fish looks generally healthy. Is the discoloration back by the caudal fin also from the bullying? I'd go back to my original advice and keep the water as clean as possible. It's tough to treat a 6' tank with anything. If it gets looking nasty try the bath in a bucket. Or if your so inclined, the injection might be a good try. I've never done anything like that.

December 22, 2011
1:39 am
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Plaamoo
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How's it going Martin?

December 24, 2011
6:07 pm
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JazzBora150
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@ plaamoo well it looks no better nor any worse either

happy christmas to you and your family

martin

December 25, 2011
5:07 am
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Plaamoo
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Thanks Martin, same to you!

I've never had a wound that large on a fish, I don't keep large fish. Might take a while? Have you tried any meds?

December 25, 2011
8:02 pm
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Dave Argyll
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QUOTE (plaamoo @ Dec 25 2011, 04:50 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks Martin, same to you!

I've never had a wound that large on a fish, I don't keep large fish. Might take a while? Have you tried any meds?

i read somewhere (and i dont have all the detail, so anyone else with more authoritative knowledge on this please chip in) that fish skin wounds heal differently to mammals. For both fish and mammals, infection needs to be under control and the underlying tissues need to be intact/healed enough to provide a blood supply and support to new epithelial cells, but when wound re-epithelialization begins in mammals due to the risk of drying in the atmosphere, the layer of new cells is more obvious becuase it grows out over the wound from the edges as a relatively thick multicell layer (that's resistant to drying out).

by contrast, in fish the main concern of the healing process is to seal up the gap quickly (to stop the waterlogging and salt imbalance effect on the underlying tissues) so a single cell layer grows over the wound from its edges, and in fish the new cells are not at risk of drying out, so initially its just a very fine transparent film formed by a single cell thickness layer, which then thickens up over time.

so the wound may look unchanged in size but in fact the healing may be well underway, so its hard to tell without looking very closely. the new healthy cell layer, although transparent, should look glossy, almost like a celophane layer covering the underlying structures, and you may notice individual pigment cells peppering the surface.

can you take another pic of the wound, hi resolution close-up would be great. how is the fish? eating and behaving normally?

cheers dave

December 25, 2011
8:33 pm
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Plaamoo
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Very interesting Dave. Thanks for sharing!

December 27, 2011
4:38 pm
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JazzBora150
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the fish is behaving normally
eating very well and not afraid to battle for its share of daily food input
i will get a good photo of it asap and post it up

thx guys

martin

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