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Hybrids In The Hobby.
July 26, 2008
7:33 am
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Jarcave
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So what do you guys and girls think about hybrids in the hobby? I thought I'd ask following on from comments made in the Parrot thread. Before replying, please remember that many fish you see in your LFS are technically hybrids. A lot of angelfish, discus and livebearers are the result of cross breeding different species. It's not just parrot cichlids and flower horns.

Personally I have no problems with hybrids being created for the food market. We have a planet to feed after all, and if the resulting offspring of two Tilapia sp etc result in a food fish which is quicker to market than a true species, then I think this is a good thing.

But in the hobby, I think things are different. It's dissapointing to see so many hybrid Synodontis catfish at your LFS now. With the likelihood of fewer species being available to the hobbyist in the future I think it's a shame that importers are favouring these fish over natural species.

However, they're in the business to sell fish after all. To be fair many people find them attractive (Not me), and so they do seem to sell well. There is an argument to say that they reduce pressure on wild caught fish too.

So what do you all think?
Jared

July 26, 2008
11:09 am
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Eyrie
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I'm against interfering with nature. A naturally occurring hybrid is OK, but not a man made one. Besides there are plenty of species out there to choose from without adding alternatives.

Mature, sensible signature required for responsible position. Good prospects for the right candidate. Apply within.
July 26, 2008
11:16 am
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keith565
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QUOTE (Eyrie @ Jul 26 2008, 11:52 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm against interfering with nature. A naturally occurring hybrid is OK, but not a man made one. Besides there are plenty of species out there to choose from without adding alternatives.

well said, my sentiments exactly. /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" />

July 26, 2008
11:32 am
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mickthefish
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same as lads, but i have a feeling David will put his twopennies worth in.
he likes hybrids. /wacko.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wacko:" border="0" alt="wacko.gif" />

mick

July 26, 2008
11:43 am
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Matt
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I don't understand the use of necessity for these in the hobby when there are so many beautiful, naturally-occuring species out there. Unfortunately many hybrids do sell well, as many people seem to go for what is most attractive to them and to hell with the ethics....

Cake or death?
July 26, 2008
11:54 am
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Jarcave
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QUOTE (Matt @ Jul 26 2008, 12:26 PM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't understand the use of necessity for these in the hobby when there are so many beautiful, naturally-occuring species out there. Unfortunately many hybrids do sell well, as many people seem to go for what is most attractive to them and to hell with the ethics....

I dislike them with a passion. Particularly those hybrids with resultant health problems. However I understand why they are popular, they're usually nicely marked colourfull and cheap. I also think that there is a lack of understanding within the hobby. Too many people buy parrots and flowerhorns ets without knowing they are a hybrid. I think the world "hybrid" would deter some people from purchasing them...

July 26, 2008
11:58 am
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Matt
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Yes, a lack of knowledge plus an unwillingness to learn in many cases (it seems to me)... /rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" />

Ps - anyone who hasn't yet read it may find this thread interesting...

Cake or death?
July 26, 2008
12:44 pm
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Daspricey
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I agree with all of you guys! It also really bugs me when fish from completely different countries; ones that would never meet in the wild. If hybrids are natural though in the wild it's a slightly different matter, possibly evolution?

I am also very worried in the amount of botiine loaches that are now being crossed by the Czech. /angry.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":angry:" border="0" alt="angry.gif" />

Another worrying thing is what happens if these hybrids found a way into the wild, hybridization can cause differences such as different temperaments condition tolerances ect for example the mexican gilla monster and Indian cobra creates a animal that has much more powerful poison. I don't know if this is the case in fish hybrids (Of coarse not from the poison point of view! lol).

David

July 26, 2008
1:31 pm
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Malti
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How did they manage to mate a Gila with a snake? - what was the outcome animal? (pics maybe?)

July 26, 2008
7:38 pm
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Daspricey
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QUOTE (Malti @ Jul 26 2008, 02:14 PM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
How did they manage to mate a Gila with a snake? - what was the outcome animal? (pics maybe?)

I'm afraid your asking alot there. It was a long time ago when i saw it in a article (I can't even remember what the article was about; but i don't think it was about fish), i don't think there was a photo. I'll have a good look around for you, i'll see if i can find it.

July 27, 2008
5:22 am
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Malti
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QUOTE (Daspricey @ Jul 26 2008, 09:21 PM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm afraid your asking alot there. It was a long time ago when i saw it in a article (I can't even remember what the article was about; but i don't think it was about fish), i don't think there was a photo. I'll have a good look around for you, i'll see if i can find it.

cheers mate. - it'd be complex to say the least to mate them. its already hard to mate different snakes together, let alone a snake and a lizard

July 27, 2008
7:40 am
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ndc
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main problem with all of this is that its not 'mating' - its all to do with genetic manufacturing, so the limits unfortunately are not to do with species anymore , its now down to how far we push things.

July 27, 2008
1:50 pm
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David Marshall
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David's twopennies worth in - by request from me 'old mate' Mick

Yes I have, ethics apart, an interest in hybrid Synodontis. I see this as an extension to my 'passion' for these catfish.

I like to monitor the colour changes and growth patterns etc. of these hybrids, some of which are beautiful in colour. There is a good reason for this as I do a powerpoint presentation on Synodontis so this allows me to explain to members of the audience what is 'real' and what is 'fake' in the world of these remarkable fish.

The fault is with those wholesalers and retailers who do not make it clear that the Syno.'s they are either offering or selling are hybrid.

From the breeders point of view they can obtain, sadly, more viable fry through crossing Syno. speices than they can from breeding a pair of 'as nature intended' fish.

Regards David

Regards David

July 28, 2008
3:35 pm
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Matt
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David are these hybrid Synodontis produced via actual spawning events or the use of hormones? I ask as you used the word "viable" in reference to the fry.

Also do you think that the vast majority of retailers/wholesalers either know or care that they are shifting hybrid fish? I have my doubts...

Cake or death?
July 28, 2008
4:16 pm
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Malti
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I had hybrid fish, couple of months ago - swordtail mollies...

July 28, 2008
5:24 pm
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Jarcave
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QUOTE (Matt @ Jul 28 2008, 04:18 PM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
David are these hybrid Synodontis produced via actual spawning events or the use of hormones? I ask as you used the word "viable" in reference to the fry.

Also do you think that the vast majority of retailers/wholesalers either know or care that they are shifting hybrid fish? I have my doubts...

Matt

I have no doubts at all. They don't care one bit what they sell, so long as they do sell. I saw a tank full of very large Syno's at a local wholesalers 2 months ago. The tank was full of various adult specimens labelled up as "Assorted large Synodontis" and they were struggling to shift them at just £5.99 before bulk discounts!

Everyone wants the pretty hybrids.............

July 28, 2008
6:22 pm
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David Marshall
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Hey

Matt - my guess would be 100% hormone stimulation but this is a question only the breeders can answer.

Ethics apart the breeders claim that more viable fry survive from spawnings of two different Syno species than from spawning a 'natural pair'. I don't wish to push myself into hot water, or look as though I condone their activities, but if you remember the first batches of Featherfins which arrived into the U.K. many had twisted spines, deformed faces and a body shape far removed from those which were wild caught. I am no scholar of genetics but going on this perhaps a hybrid cross is somehow needed to mainatain a Syno. shape in h.s. produced fish? This is only my thoughts and based on no information received.

Jarcave - thanks my friend. I don't have to answer this part of Matt's question as you have seen first-hand what goes on.

Regards David

July 29, 2008
7:08 am
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Jarcave
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Hi David

I'd really love to post how fish are "sold" to retailers. And about the motivational techniques employed to ensure high sales, but can't as I'd probably have a libel case on my hands. /sad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad.gif" />

July 29, 2008
9:18 am
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Matt
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Jared, provided you don't name names you have nothing to worry about. /wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

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