LOGIN

RSS Facebook Twitter YouTube
GLOSSARY       

SEARCHGLOSSARY

A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

PROFILESEARCH

Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





 

Minimum search word length is 4 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Interesting Hybrid Rays Born Today
September 16, 2010
9:35 pm
Avatar
Sojapat
Member
Forum Posts: 46
Member Since:
June 23, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Had a batch of pups today from a male P.henlei x female P.sp Mantilla
Should be nice to see what they grow out into .
[Image Can Not Be Found]

September 16, 2010
9:39 pm
Avatar
Mark Duffill
Community Helper
Forum Posts: 1012
Member Since:
August 12, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Congrats Neil, lovely lookers /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

September 17, 2010
6:58 am
Avatar
Matt
Málaga, Spain
Admin
Forum Posts: 8239
Member Since:
June 13, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Interesting patterns. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> P. sp. 'Mantilla' is one I've never heard of before. Any pics of how a non-hybrid one looks?

Cake or death?
September 18, 2010
1:58 am
Avatar
Nomad
Member
Forum Posts: 41
Member Since:
August 14, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I hope those pups are mules.

I, personally, am against any and all hybrids. The last thing we need is bloodlines being polluted and more abominations like the Flowerhorn Cichlid. Any hybrids in my old breeding room went in the garbage disposal (2 big oscars...)

September 18, 2010
11:23 pm
Avatar
Sojapat
Member
Forum Posts: 46
Member Since:
June 23, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hi Nomad I will kill them right now /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" /> NOT!
Here is the sp mantilla .
[Image Can Not Be Found]

September 19, 2010
9:01 am
Avatar
Bully
South Wales
Veteran
Forum Posts: 249
Member Since:
July 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Was this an intentional cross?

September 20, 2010
5:31 am
Avatar
Nomad
Member
Forum Posts: 41
Member Since:
August 14, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

QUOTE (Sojapat @ Sep 19 2010, 09:06 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi Nomad I will kill them right now /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" /> NOT!
Here is the sp mantilla .
[Image Can Not Be Found]

Yeah, whatever. No need for sarcasm.

Crossing captive strains is irresponsible in the extreme. Sorry I cannot be enthusiastic or excited for you. Believe me, if they were pure bred, I would be jumping for joy for you.

Be responsible in your disposal of these aborations. Please.

September 20, 2010
3:15 pm
Avatar
Hokum
Member
Forum Posts: 94
Member Since:
August 11, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

QUOTE (Nomad @ Sep 20 2010, 06:14 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, whatever. No need for sarcasm.

Crossing captive strains is irresponsible in the extreme. Sorry I cannot be enthusiastic or excited for you. Believe me, if they were pure bred, I would be jumping for joy for you.

Be responsible in your disposal of these aborations. Please.

I guess your not a goldfish fan then...

TBH I don't like hybrids which effect the animals way of life like the flowerhorns and many of the "fancy" goldfish, but I wouldn't tell people to kill them... its like telling people to kill mongrels

September 20, 2010
7:23 pm
Avatar
Sojapat
Member
Forum Posts: 46
Member Since:
June 23, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Well I challenge ANYONE on this forum to honestly say they never owned a hybrid fish?
They are ornamental fish for enjoyment !
These fish will never go anywhere near the wild and they chose each other to breed with.
I understand some of your points,these fishes will be a lower price than the pure strains which may help introduce newcomers to the hobby .
I do breed pure strain fish also .
Oh and by the way Nomad, I can be sarcastic it nicer than a murderer...
What are your feelings on mixed race children .. are these aborations too?
Food for thought ?
We are all related if you go far enough back ..so to are potamotrygon...
Check out how the Amazon river evolved ...
Enjoy your fishes .

September 21, 2010
6:30 pm
Avatar
Eyrie
Veteran
Forum Posts: 571
Member Since:
March 21, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

My own view is that deliberately crossing species is something to be avoided, although I would not go as far as to cull the offspring. And whilst they are ornamental fish, we still have responsibilities even although we keep them for our enjoyment.

Comments about mixed race children are an inaccurate comparison since they are still Homo sapiens rather than a cross with another species (eg Homo erectus). So let's end that comparison please before tempers flare.

As regards being related to rays, I'd have to trace my family tree back 500 million years or so /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Mature, sensible signature required for responsible position. Good prospects for the right candidate. Apply within.
September 21, 2010
7:01 pm
Avatar
Bully
South Wales
Veteran
Forum Posts: 249
Member Since:
July 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

QUOTE (Sojapat @ Sep 20 2010, 08:06 PM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well I challenge ANYONE on this forum to honestly say they never owned a hybrid fish?

Well, I would imagine that there are lot of people that have never kept a hybrid fish. Granted that line-bred fish are part and parcel of the hobby, but not so much with hybrids. With the exception of a Betta splendens (questionable heritage these days I believe) I have not knowingly kept a hybrid fish. It's also one of the reasons I'm a fan of wild-caught fish over cultured species.

Personally, I will never see the point in hybrids and it's just that, a personal choice. Naturally, as a retailer you come from a different perspective /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

September 21, 2010
7:37 pm
Avatar
Matt
Málaga, Spain
Admin
Forum Posts: 8239
Member Since:
June 13, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

QUOTE (Bully @ Sep 21 2010, 06:44 PM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Naturally, as a retailer you come from a different perspective /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Fair point tbh. /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" /> Not a massive fan of hybrids either but kept my fair share of platies, swordtails, etc. in the past. Moral aspect aside my main issue with having them in the hobby is when you're unsure if you're buying a genuine species or not as with many Synodontis, Melanotaenia, Rift Lake cichlids, etc. these days.

This is absolutely NOT the case in sojapat's shop, by the way, which counts among the very best around.

Cake or death?
September 22, 2010
1:37 pm
Avatar
Nomad
Member
Forum Posts: 41
Member Since:
August 14, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Sojapat, I did not mean to cause offence. I have kept many fish over the past 30 years and have a deep and abiding hatered of hybrids and have never allowed one to exist on my tanks. The reasons for this are many. Not least, I like to know what I am getting.

Congratulations on the spawn, that is obviously what you want to hear.

As far as being ornamental fish for enjoyment only, you are far off the mark. Many of these fish, including the rays, are up against the wall. They have a chance of survival, us. If in 20 years there are none left in the wild and the only ones in captivity are the skanky hybridised mongrels, it'll be pretty upsetting. If people like yourself didn't waste their time and talents on mongrels and put that effort into pure strains, it would benefit the whole industry and the ecological preservation effort.

If we had ignored this and just mixed the various Melnatonia eachamensus strains, which we identified down to locality and kept the strains seperate, we might have lost completely some important strains of this beautiful little Aussie. A dedicated group of ANGFA and other aquarium society members worked hard swapping these fish all over the country to preserve it. It remains the same for all species. Less crossing, more scientific approach.

Especially from someone of your obvious talent and skill.

September 22, 2010
8:31 pm
Avatar
Sojapat
Member
Forum Posts: 46
Member Since:
June 23, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hi Nomad , Points taken /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" />
I will produce true strains whenever possible ,these 2 fishes are shacked up together ,this is accidental.
I am accumilating groups of fishes but getting a mantilla male is almost impossible .
We all have views which often conflict .
If I bred these fishes and could keep them all I could say what will happen in the future but even if I sell pure strains whats to say the customer wont cross them /blush.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blush:" border="0" alt="blush.gif" />
It interesting if you follow the breeding of these fishes they appear so different from the wild fishes (pure strains) even at F1 !
Wether its the food or water or a combination of the 2 tank bred outshine the wild fishes If you are interested have a look around at a couple of varieties P14 at F2 is nothing like a wild fish and sp Pearls which are my little thing .

September 22, 2010
8:51 pm
Avatar
MatsP
Member
Forum Posts: 116
Member Since:
August 23, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I spoke to Neil (Sojapat) when I was visiting up in Wigan on Saturday, on my way to the Catfish Study Group auction on Sunday.

Whilst I'm not a fan of hybrids either, and I agree with the analysis that humans may well be different from various regions, they are still the same species, where the rays are definitely not.

The only possible hybrid that I own is my Ancistrus of the common variety. We don't KNOW if these are hybrids or not - it is possible, but not certain.

--
Mats

September 22, 2010
10:02 pm
Avatar
Sojapat
Member
Forum Posts: 46
Member Since:
June 23, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hi Matts , If you go far enough back the rays are related ?
Just like humans .
Evoloution like it or not ..
Humans ..so called inteligent life ..you,me everybody .
We all change how the big picture turns out .
Enjoy your fishes while you can...
Visit the places you love ...while you can
Enjoy life .. while you can ..
Dams will destroy the eccosystems ..we cant change that and how can we breed and maintain the fishes for re introduction ?
There will be nothing to send them back too.
So we maintain the fishes like an aquatic zoo...
People spoil everything ...none of us can change this ..
/wub.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wub:" border="0" alt="wub.gif" /> Love what you do ...we are just a speck ....think what you like you wont change the way that we are messing up our world.

September 24, 2010
4:28 pm
Avatar
Nomad
Member
Forum Posts: 41
Member Since:
August 14, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

QUOTE (Sojapat @ Sep 23 2010, 07:45 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi Matts , If you go far enough back the rays are related ?
Just like humans .
Evoloution like it or not ..
Humans ..so called inteligent life ..you,me everybody .
We all change how the big picture turns out .
Enjoy your fishes while you can...
Visit the places you love ...while you can
Enjoy life .. while you can ..
Dams will destroy the eccosystems ..we cant change that and how can we breed and maintain the fishes for re introduction ?
There will be nothing to send them back too.
So we maintain the fishes like an aquatic zoo...
People spoil everything ...none of us can change this ..
/wub.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wub:" border="0" alt="wub.gif" /> Love what you do ...we are just a speck ....think what you like you wont change the way that we are messing up our world.

Sadly...

Take a look at page 22 of the August Practical Fishkeeping Magazine. Under the heading "Watch out for hybrids...". I found it tonight.

Keep in mind, many hybrid strains are unstable and tend to throw nasty genes through gene pools, polluting them forever... for everyone.

This is a matter of common sense, not opinion.

Forum Timezone: Europe/Paris

Most Users Ever Online: 246

Currently Online:
1 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Devices in use: Desktop (1)

Top Posters:

Stefan: 1567

Plaamoo: 1253

mikev: 1134

Malti: 1099

Mark Duffill: 1012

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 0

Members: 30280

Moderators: 0

Admins: 2

Forum Stats:

Groups: 4

Forums: 10

Topics: 4595

Posts: 36614

Newest Members: cassman66, crabhappy, StygianSteel, marcelmueller, foreverlearning

Administrators: dunc: 1323, Matt: 8239