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Is It Contagious?
April 5, 2009
4:46 pm
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Kit117033
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One of my new female guppies has died /sad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad.gif" /> I had wondered about her for a few days - she had started to wobble from side to side when she swam & was hanging around at the top of the tank with her tail hanging down (I considered swimbladder probs because I have a shibunkin that has done the same for 4 years now) she was still eating, but she became very thin (her belly looked almost concave - giving her a thin rectangular shape) I found her dead at the bottom of the tank a couple of days ago /sad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad.gif" /> I have taken some pics of her - post mortem.

Do you have any ideas on what killed her - & is it contagious?

The other thing I wanted to clarify (sorry to be a nuisance /blush.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blush:" border="0" alt="blush.gif" /> ) was odd behaviour from the rest of the guppies - they kind of dive bomb the gravel at the bottom (they hover above then dart down on their sides then come back up again & swim normally) they do this to the top of the filter too! Is this normal guppy behaviour? They do play alot so is this just playing too? Or am I witnessing something more sinister? (I'm a bit paranoid /unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":unsure:" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" /> )

I would be very grateful for any advice or help.

Many thanks, Kit

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April 7, 2009
10:35 am
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Matt
Málaga, Spain
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That flicking behaviour you describe is usually a sign that something is annoying the fish Kit although it's very difficult to say what based on the evidence you've given. How long have you had the guppies?

Cake or death?
April 7, 2009
12:03 pm
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David Marshall
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Hey Kit

I don't want to scare you, and advise that you ask other fishkeepers in your area to have a look at the fish, but seeing the photographs you posted I am a little concerned - for both the remaining fish and their keeper?

Fancy guppies can be prone to 'fish TB' infection and this has the effect of making their bodies go very thin and giving the dead fish a ridged look to their backs (as per your photographs).

Signs are lethargy, emaciation (hollow bellies), signs of swelling to the eyes and a loss of colour. In guppies a vertical transmission of mycobacteria causes this problem.

Often the only thing you can do is 'ride out the storm' and see how many fish survive the infection as there is no 100% solution or cure to this problem.

What you must do is move survivors to a temporary home while cleaning out the aquarium completely. Take care to use rubber gloves when working in this aquarium as there is a slight possibility that you can actually catch a small dose (which appears as a 'lumpy red rash' and spreads over the skin) of this TB from infected fish.

Regards David

April 7, 2009
12:04 pm
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David Marshall
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Hey Kit

I have done some additional research and can find no positive help in terms of suggested medication for fish which may have the problem above.

Regards David

April 7, 2009
12:37 pm
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Kit117033
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Hi Matt, thanks for replying.

This particular guppy was from a batch I bought recently (28th March) from a reputable FS. All the rest from this batch seem healthy - they all "dive bomb" the gravel but not all the time, just very occasionally. The biggest problem I have at the mo is with the 5 month old guppies I've had from birth! These are all I have left from my original guppies bought in Oct 08 (all the adults & 14 fry died one-by-one until Jan 09 then no more deaths until I added these new ones.

I've lost one of my original females a few days ago (top fin & tail clamped for two days then the appearance of white patches on both sides of her main body - these were slightly textured (fuzzy) the next morning I found her hanging in the fake plant. I thought she was dead but she moved her side fins. I put her in a salt bath but to no effect - she died later that day /sad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad.gif" /> I examined her after but there was no sign of the white fuzzy - instead it looked like red streaky patches!

Two more of my babies have white fuzzy patches - one male has a patch near his tale, one female has a patch on one side & her side fin is ragged with a white edge. The white patches only show up when the light is on (is this significant?) They are both still eating well & the female has now unclamped her top fin since I put medication in yesterday.

I separated my shrimp before I put meds in - thanks to the wonderful advice from Richy. He also gave me the names of some meds I can use in the future that are safe for shrimp!

The first one that died didn't have the same symptoms as these ones! I was concerned because her spine looked twisted (I tried to show this in the pics)

I'm trying to get some pics of the two poorly ones but it's proving difficult - between my old camera & their speed I'm just getting a blur at the mo but I will persevere! /rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" />

Kit

April 7, 2009
12:50 pm
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Kit117033
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Hi David, nice to here from you.

Exactly HOW contagious is this fish TB? It's been nearly a week since she passed & none of the others are showing the same symptoms - they have entirely new symptoms!

I was handling this fish to get the photos /unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":unsure:" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" /> should I be worried? There's no sign of a rash - is there any other symptoms I should look out for?

Not too paranoid huh?

Regards, Kit

April 7, 2009
1:33 pm
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David Marshall
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Hey Kit

I didn't mean to scare you. A fish TB infection from fish to human is rare but does happen - and takes time to show through.

What we can say for certain is that when you speak, in your reply to Matt, of white patches then this is a sign of genetic weakness that is due to in-breeding and, sadly, shows through in many guppy strains This can also be a sign of fish TB.

Fish in advanced stages of TB don't usually show red streaks but red patches, of uneven size, which resemble thum prints.

Fish with this complaint do continue to feed until the problem wears them down.

Is the above the 'new symptoms'?

Regards David

April 7, 2009
7:07 pm
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Kit117033
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Hi David

Just to clarify things, the white patches on these fish are fuzzy like fluff attached to the fish. The 1st one to die didn't have any, nor did she have red patches. The red bits on the 2nd fish to die looked like very fine red lines not actual patches (sorry it's very hard to describe /blush.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blush:" border="0" alt="blush.gif" /> ) & it didn't have a crooked body.

The two that are currently ill just have this white fuzz, but they seem to have picked up a bit since I put the medication in yesterday (Pets At Home own brand "disease treatment" containing Silver Proteinate 0.151% w/w) the female is swimming with her top fin (dorsal?) raised again, the male lost his a week ago in a fight with another more aggressive male (who's been rehomed now!) but he is back to darting about with all the others.

I guess I have to wait it out & see what happens /wacko.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wacko:" border="0" alt="wacko.gif" />

I will keep everyone posted

Kind regards,
Kit

April 8, 2009
10:30 am
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David Marshall
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Hey

Hope the medication works out fine for your fish.

Kitt do a search for Costia, costiasis and ichthyobodo (which some sources will tell you are one and the same) and let me know if the symptoms of these match those of your fish?

Regards David

April 9, 2009
10:50 am
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Kit117033
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QUOTE (David Marshall @ Apr 8 2009, 11:13 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hey

Hope the medication works out fine for your fish.

Kitt do a search for Costia, costiasis and ichthyobodo (which some sources will tell you are one and the same) and let me know if the symptoms of these match those of your fish?

Regards David

Hi David

I did a search for these but they didn't sound the same. The closest I found was Columnaris (non saddleback) but the white patches are not as "furry". Hmm it's a puzzler! /wacko.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wacko:" border="0" alt="wacko.gif" /> I've searched tropical fish diseases & googled pictures but still not found anything quite like it!

The white patches are only noticeable when the aquarium light is on (aqua glo) & even then only when the fish turns & catches the light - this is why it's soooo difficult to get a picture! These two fish are still doing fine (swimming with the rest, eating well - male is even chasing for "you-know-what!) /wub.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wub:" border="0" alt="wub.gif" />

However one of my new males (a beautiful blue) is now behaving strangely! /blink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blink:" border="0" alt="blink.gif" /> I found him on the bottom this morning but he didn't respond when I put food in, he swam like he was DRUNK, letting the current carry him mostly, propping himself up against the ornaments. It was also like his tail was too heavy for him - dragging him down! Any ideas?

I've now put some "Aqua Tonic Sat" - by Interpet in the tank to see if this helps (I only put 45ml in instead of 55ml because I was unsure how the oto's would cope) I've also been leaving the light off during this period of illness.

Hmmmmmmmm /huh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":huh:" border="0" alt="huh.gif" /> I thought that keeping fish was supposed to be relaxing!!!!!!! LOL

Kit

April 10, 2009
11:39 am
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David Marshall
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Hey Kitt

I don't want to 'lead you a dance', and have your worry increased, so what follows is purely advise that may help both you and your fish?

Firstly you are to be commended for the efforts you are making to try and find out what is wrong with the Guppies. At the end of the day I feel that a combination of problems have come together and have hampered your progress.

My belief is that your Blue male Guppy is suffering a little stress from what has happened in the aquarium of late but that, mainly, he is having problems with osmosis? Basically many fancy Guppies are still commercially bred in part-saline water. When moves are made from breeding area, to wholesaler, to retailer to aquarist the Guppies go through many changes of water, from part-saline to almost pure freshwater etc., that their body system does not always take to. By the time this, slowly, happens the consequences 'hit the aquarist' who stands at the end of this chain.

Yes Columnaris would send you 'down the wrong track' as that is a fungus that can grow around the mouths of livebearers.

Costia, costiasis and ichthyobodo can be classed as 'fish skin slime disease' so try a search, using combinations of this phrase. If you have no luck then see if your local Library can obtain for you a copy of the book 'A-Z of Tropical Fish diseases and health problems'. Authors Burgess, Bailey and Exell. ISBN 1-86054-125-9 Ringpress Books.

As you are finding Guppies are not as easy for people to keep as some websites and books etc. make them appear.

Please don't think that I have tried to scare you. I have only tried to help.

Regards David

April 10, 2009
7:10 pm
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Kit117033
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QUOTE (David Marshall @ Apr 10 2009, 12:22 PM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
My belief is that your Blue male Guppy is suffering a little stress from what has happened in the aquarium of late but that, mainly, he is having problems with osmosis? Basically many fancy Guppies are still commercially bred in part-saline water. When moves are made from breeding area, to wholesaler, to retailer to aquarist the Guppies go through many changes of water, from part-saline to almost pure freshwater etc., that their body system does not always take to. By the time this, slowly, happens the consequences 'hit the aquarist' who stands at the end of this chain.

Please don't think that I have tried to scare you. I have only tried to help.

Regards David

Hi David - I have good news! /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

My Beautiful Blue has made a good recovery /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /> It looks like the salt did the trick - by the evening he was up & swimming normally YAY (I really thought he was a goner!)

No others have died yet! Yipee

I'm doing a partial water change tomorrow & putting a carbon pad in my filter to remove whats left of the meds (I put them in Monday - so that will be 5 days) How long will it take to remove the chemicals of the meds? I want to know when it's safe to put my Amano shrimp back in the tank /wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

Thank you for all your help & advice - I really appreciate it /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" /> I will look up the book in the library - maybe even invest in a copy of my own (well I may need it as I do keep Guppies!! LOL)

Thanks once again,
Kit

April 10, 2009
8:22 pm
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David Marshall
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Hey Kit

Brilliant news.

Yes the salt should have helped with the osmosis trouble.

It will take several days to remove the chemicals. Regular partial changes of water will help.

I don't know much about shrimps so will say leave the return for a fortnight, in order for the aquarium water etc. to settle down.

Happy Easter

Regards David

April 10, 2009
8:42 pm
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Kit117033
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QUOTE (David Marshall @ Apr 10 2009, 09:05 PM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hey Kit

Happy Easter

Regards David

Happy Easter to you to & thanks for all the help /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" /> Hopefully I can post "happy" news of my fish in the future x

Kit

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