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Loach ID needed
August 27, 2008
8:22 pm
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Matt
Málaga, Spain
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Found these today. They don't look like Cobitis taenia or C. calderoni which are supposed to be the only two species from that genus found in Catalunya. Or are they wee Misgurnus? If they are there were no adults found which seems odd. Any ideas gentlefolk? Plenty more pics to share once we have a postive id. /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

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They come in two colours: /cool.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="B)" border="0" alt="cool.gif" />

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Cake or death?
August 27, 2008
8:40 pm
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ndc
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dont know but your getting very good at finding fish whos natural habitat is a green leaf !!

August 27, 2008
8:41 pm
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mickthefish
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they certainly look like Misgurnus to me bud,

mick

August 27, 2008
8:56 pm
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Matt
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Lol Neill they grow on trees around here. /tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" /> Cheers Mick thought as much. /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" />

Cake or death?
August 27, 2008
10:17 pm
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Matt
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Should be M. fossilis?

Edit - Hmm no looks like anguillicaudatus...

Cake or death?
August 27, 2008
10:42 pm
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Malti
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an alien species introduced by some"hobbyist"?

August 28, 2008
12:38 am
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Matt
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Aye quite possibly Karlos. I know they're having trouble with this species in quite a few places here. /rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" />

Cake or death?
August 28, 2008
12:51 am
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Malti
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if they want to catch a few and send them over...wonder what type of tank they need - I'll check kb later, as got a date with my bed now, hope kb is updated /tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" />

so spain are worse than us, they have gambusia, this cobitis, the crayfish, much more alien species to compete with the native ones - we got "only" gambusia to worry about...

August 28, 2008
1:10 am
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Matt
Málaga, Spain
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Not just them either mate. Half the lakes here are over-run with predatory American largemouth bass Micropterus salmoides and sunfish Lepomis gibbosus, plus there are carp, pike, cichlids and more... /rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" /> Full list. Hmm reading that no mention of our loach here plus TIGER SHARK??

Cake or death?
August 28, 2008
9:20 am
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Mark Duffill
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Personally I think you could well have Misgurnus mizolepis there Matt.

August 28, 2008
5:06 pm
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Matt
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Now that would be odd Mark! /ohmy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":o" border="0" alt="ohmy.gif" /> What makes you think so?

Cake or death?
August 28, 2008
6:06 pm
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Mark Duffill
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Its just a hunch Matt, I spoke to a friend of mine after he returned from Taiwan around 3 years ago and he said that there was a lot of work getting carried out breeding male M. mizolepis to female M. anguillicaudatus. This triploid hybridisation was creating faster growing fish, and he said that the fish produced looked more like M. mizolepis than M. anguillicaudatus.

The fact that you have found lots of small ones but no adults would indicate that the fish have been put there by someone and I am wondering if some of these hybrid fish are making their way out of Asia.

One of the reasons these fish were been produced was for use as food fish and bait fish.

I will see if I can get in touch with him and get more details.

August 28, 2008
6:52 pm
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mickthefish
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That does not sound good Mark, i hope your wrong mate.
see what i mean about these bloody hybrids,
are you reading this David Marshall.
if they can do it there they could also do it over here mate.

mick

August 28, 2008
7:13 pm
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Matt
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I think there's a possibility these are hybrids. Reason being I caught loads of them at this size and not a single bigger fish. The habitat is rather "closed" so I don't think it's a case of a brood of younger fish living together for safety or anything. Plus if they were released here by a "hobbyist" at all the same size said person would have had to be in possession of several hundred young specimens... /wacko.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wacko:" border="0" alt="wacko.gif" /> Here's where I caught them from. These two ponds are well cut-off from the bigger lake behind:

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Ps - Mark I hope you're wrong too mate...

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Cake or death?
August 28, 2008
7:29 pm
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Mark Duffill
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QUOTE (Matt @ Aug 28 2008, 07:56 PM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ps - Mark I hope you're wrong too mate...

So do I but you know what its like when you get a hunch, its one of the few occasions I really hope I am wrong /angry.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":angry:" border="0" alt="angry.gif" />

August 28, 2008
11:10 pm
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Malti
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/angry.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":angry:" border="0" alt="angry.gif" /> @ 31 species +....damn really goes under my skin...

August 28, 2008
11:52 pm
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Matt
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I know Karlos. /sad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad.gif" /> Rather depressed to confirm that Mark was absolutely spot on too:

Triploid hybridization of fast-growing transgenic mud loach Misgurnus mizolepis male to cyprinid loach Misgurnus anguillicaudatus female: the first performance study on growth and reproduction of transgenic polyploid hybrid fish.
Aquaculture 2004, vol. 231, no1-4, pp. 559-572
YOON KWON NAM, PARK In-Seok, DONG SOO KIM

Abstract
Transgenic triploid hybrids between fast-growing transgenic mud loach (Misgurnus mizolepis) males and cyprinid loach (Misgurnus anguillicaudatus) females were generated, and their performance on growth, feed conversion ability and reproduction was evaluated. Although the growth acceleration of diploid and triploid transgenic hybrids was not as much as that of the original transgenic mud loaches, they still represented significant growth stimulation ranging between 11- and 28-fold when compared to their non-transgenic counterparts, with significantly improved feed conversion efficiency (FCE) up to maxima of 2-fold (compared to non-transgenic hybrid) and 1.5-fold (compared to non-transgenic mud loach). The gonad development of diploid hybrids was histologically normal regardless of transgenic genotype but the extent of gonad development in hybrid fish was less than that in mud loach diploids at the same age. On the other hand, sterility was observed in both sexes of the triploid hybrid transgenics: Ovarian and testicular development in transgenic triploid hybrids were significantly depressed, and no sign of maturation to ovum or spermatids was detected. No viable embryos were obtained in a fertilization trial using a suspension prepared from the minced testes of transgenic triploid hybrids. This study may indicate the potential usefulness of triploid hybridization as a mean for reproductive containment of transgenic mud loach.

Edit: Veering off topic a bit, but had to show you this. All these fish are six months old but the top two are hybrids with accelerated growth whereas the bottom one is a "normal" specimen. /ohmy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":o" border="0" alt="ohmy.gif" />

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Taken from Accelerated growth performance and stable germ-line transmission in androgenetically derived homozygous transgenic mud loach, Misgurnus mizolepis.
Aquaculture, Volume 209, Issues 1-4, 28 June 2002, Pages 257-270
Yoon Kwon Nam, Young Sun Cho, Hyo Jong Cho, Dong Soo Kim

Edit #2: Link to paper isn´t working without my ids so have replaced it with the abstract.

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Cake or death?
August 29, 2008
9:46 am
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Mark Duffill
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The worst part is I can only see this sort of thing happening more and more /angry.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":angry:" border="0" alt="angry.gif" />

That is shocking to see such differences in 6 month old fish /ohmy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":o" border="0" alt="ohmy.gif" />

August 29, 2008
10:03 am
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mickthefish
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now i get what oliv was saying on LOL, increased growth.
and my question still is WHY.
the stock answer is because they can, but to me it's still a none fish.
i know from lads in Singapore they find loads of aliens in one of their reservoirs both hybrids and large fish and invertebrates.

mick

August 29, 2008
10:15 am
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Mark Duffill
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In one respect I can see why because these fish were initially produced as food fish which then takes away any dependency of wild stocks but once they are marketed as just weather loach and make it into the trade it has then been done for the wrong reasons.

Unfortunately its just a reflection of the current way of life, we can do it so why not make money from it /angry.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":angry:" border="0" alt="angry.gif" />

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