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Nemachilichthys Spp.
November 1, 2010
10:00 pm
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Matt
Málaga, Spain
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I've been pondering this for the last day or two having read a few references plus forum threads elsewhere and am now leaning towards the fish in the hobby being N. shimogensis. One of the main reasons I think so is that Andrew Rao is certain that all those sold in the trade are collected from the Thunga and Bhadra rivers near Shimoga, Karnataka - the former of which is the type locality of the species.

Meanwhile N. rueppelli was described from close to Pune, well over 500 km north of Shimoga in Maharashtra state. In its description Sykes states that the body colour is "greenish yellow" and "the lateral line marked with short dark bars".

In the N. shimogensis description Narayan Rao gives the colour and patterning as "orange with brown bars, continuing dorsally and descending to the ventral margin of the body. A few shorter intermediate bars also present" and "head in freshly collected specimens is brownish or reddish".

Now, here's Syke's Cobitis ruppelli:

[Image Can Not Be Found]

Narayan Rao's N. shimogensis:

[Image Can Not Be Found]

...and a couple of Mark's adult specimens:

[Image Can Not Be Found]

[Image Can Not Be Found]

Any opinions much appreciated!

Attached files

[Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found]

Cake or death?
November 1, 2010
11:06 pm
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Mark Duffill
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I think the conclusion that was reached at the time of these coming in was that these fish that myself and Mick got were N. shimogensis

November 1, 2010
11:15 pm
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Plaamoo
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That's a new one to me, Beautiful!

November 1, 2010
11:55 pm
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Matt
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Cute huh Jim? /wub.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wub:" border="0" alt="wub.gif" />

Aha! Thanks for the confirmation Mark! /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" /> Even attempted to rouse His Darkness I was so confused. *shakes head* Have some pics from Mick that will be added to the profile with yours. Have you heard from the b*gger recently?

Cake or death?
November 2, 2010
12:14 am
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Plaamoo
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^I think he's in farmville /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

November 2, 2010
9:58 am
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Mark Duffill
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I think he is to busy farming and playing mahjong on Facebook /laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="Laugh" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" />

The last time I spoke to Mick he was scaling down quite a bit and was only planning to leave a couple of tanks running I think, he wasnt feeling the best and had lost a lot of interest really /sad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad.gif" />

November 2, 2010
10:23 pm
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The.Dark.One
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Hi

The reason I suggested using the name was because their locality and physical appearance are identical to that of shimogensis. I'm aware that Menon synonymised it with rueppelli but based on the locality and slight difference in colour and pattern I wasn't convinced the synonymy was correct. However this is just a hunch. Menon did examine specimens from the Mula Mutha River. It may well be that the slight differences in pattern and colour were just down to preservation, or it may be that Menon has overlooked differences that may be relevant at species or subspecies level. The fish of southern India are very poorly known.

So, really it is up to you whether to follow Menon who has seen specimens from both areas, or Banarescu & Nalbant (who I don't think did).

Just a quick check Matt - How many dorsal rays are listed in the the two descriptions?

See my catfish images at http://www.scotcat.com/thedarkone/thedarkone.htm
November 2, 2010
11:40 pm
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Matt
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Sykes gives 13 for C. rupelli, Narayan Rao 14 (2/12) for N. shimogensis. Banarescu and Nalbant state 10-11 branched dorsal rays is diagnostic for both species and that they're endemic to the Kistna (sic - I guess they mean Krishna) river system. That last point makes me less inclined to trust them...

Does Death require any of these papers?

By the way you're twistin' me Menon, man. Really need to find a copy. /dry.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="<_ <" border="0" alt="dry.gif">

Cake or death?
November 4, 2010
9:57 pm
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The.Dark.One
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QUOTE (Matt @ Nov 2 2010, 11:23 PM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sykes gives 13 for C. rupelli, Narayan Rao 14 (2/12) for N. shimogensis. Banarescu and Nalbant state 10-11 branched dorsal rays is diagnostic for both species and that they're endemic to the Kishna (sic - I guess they mean Krishna) river system. That last point makes me less inclined to trust them...

Does Death require any of these papers?

By the way you're twistin' me Menon, man. Really need to find a copy. /dry.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="<_ <" border="0" alt="dry.gif">

Hi Matt.
OK. I don't think that is significant then. I have got both papers but they are in a huge pile!
Just remind me please if B&N gave any differences and if so what.

Sorry about that! That's why I like to buy things as they come out cos if I can't get a copy later I get really pissed off. Current list if books (mu ha ha ha):

A Coloured atlas of some Invertebrates from Ceylon - Vol 1 - Fishes
A Complete Guide to the Freshwater Fishes of Southern Africa
A Field Guide to Freshwater Fishes - North America North of Mexico
A Field Guide to the Fishes of Tasek Bera, Malaysia
A GUIDE TO THE FRESHWATER FISHES OF SINGAPORE
A HANDBOOK OF ORNAMENTAL FISHES OF THE BRAHMAPUTRA BASIN
A Photographic Guide to the Inland-water Fishes of Taiwan - Vol. 1 Cypriniformes
A taxonomic Revision of the fishes of the genus Mystus
An account of the fishes found in the river Ganges and its branches
Aqualog - all Corydoras
Aqualog - all Labyrinths
Aqualog - Loricariidae all L - Numbers
Aqualog - The latest L Numbers
Aqualog Photo Collection - African Catfish
AQUARIEN ATLAS - 6
AQUARIEN ATLAS - Foto Index 1-5
AQUARIUM ATLAS - 1
AQUARIUM ATLAS - 2
AQUARIUM ATLAS - 3
Atlas des Poissons Deau Douce de GUYANE Tome I
Atlas des Poissons Deau Douce de GUYANE Tome II Fasc I & II
Atlas Ichthyologique Band II (Siluriformes)
Atlas Ichthyologique Band III (Cypriniformes)
Atlas of Freshwater and Marine Catfishes
Atlas of Freshwater Fishes of Russia Vols 1&2
Atlas of Killifishes of the Old World
Atlas of LIVEBEARERS
ATLAS OF NORTH AMERICAN FRESHWATER FISHES
Atlas of North American Freshwater Fishes, Supplement
Atlas of Southern African Freshwater Fishes
Back to Nature Guide to Catfishes
Bede Atlas Freshwater Aquarium Fishes
Biodiversity Documentation for Kerala: Freshwater Fishes
Bloch Atlas Vol 1-3
Breeding Corydoradine Catfishes
Catalogue of the Freshwater Fishes of Africa in the British Museum Volumes I-IV
Catfish and Loaches-The Bottom Dwellers
Catfish Atlas 1
Catfishes of India
Catfishes of the World - Vol 2 + supps.
Catfishes of the World - Vol 3 + supps.
Catfishes of the World - Vol 4 + supps.
Catfishes of the World - Vol 5 + supps.
Catfishes of the World - Vol. 1+ supps.
Catfishes Vols 1 & 2
CHARACOIDS OF THE WORLD
CICHLIDS and all other fishes of Lake Malawi
CICHLIDS and all other fishes of Lake Tanganyika
COLOURED ILLUSTRATIONS OF FRESHWATER FISHES OF KOREA
Coloured Lexicon of Cichlids - 2nd edition
COMMON FRESHWATER FISHES OF EAST AFRICA
CORYDORAS CATFISH
Corydoras-The most popular armoured catfishes of South America
Die Faszinerende Welt der CORYDORAS (looseleaf)
Die Susswasserfische Birmas - Die familie Cobitidae
Economic Fauna of China: Fresh Water Fishes
Encyclopedia of Flora nd Fauna of Bangladesh - Freshwater Fishes
Endemic Freshwater Fishes of India
European Inland Water Fish
exotic tropical fishes - looseleaf + supplements
Fauna des poissons d'eaux douces de la reserve de la biosphere de Dimonika (Mayombe, Congo)
Fauna of British India inc. Ceylon and Burma - FISHES Vol I & II
Fauna of India Pisces Cobitidae
Fauna of India Pisces Homalopteridae
Fauna of Meghalaya - Part I Vertebrates
Fauna Sinica Pisces Cypriniformes II
Fauna Sinica Pisces Cypriniformes III
Fauna Sinica Pisces - Perciformes V - Gobioidei
Fauna Sinica Pisces Siluridae
Faune des poissons d'eaux douces et saumâtres de l'Afrique de l'Ouest Vol 1
Faune des poissons d'eaux douces et saumâtres de l'Afrique de l'Ouest Vol 2
Field Guide to the Fishes of the Mekong Delta
Field Guide to the Freshwater Fishes of AUSTRALIA
FIELD GUIDE TO THE FRESHWATER FISHES OF NEW GUINEA
Field Guide to the Freshwater Fishes of Tanzania
Fish and Fisheries of North Eastern India (Arunachal Pradesh)
FISH OF BRITAIN & EUROPE
Fishes and Fish Resources in Xizang, China
Fishes of Alabama
Fishes Of Brazil - Translated version
Fishes of freshwater and estuary, Taiwan
Fishes of Henan
Fishes of Hubei
Fishes of Hunan
FISHES OF JAPAN IN COLOUR
Fishes of Lake Kariba, Africa
FISHES OF LAOS
Fishes of Mongolia (Internet print)
Fishes of North East India
Fishes of North East India - a field guide to species identification
Fishes of Shandong
Fishes of Thailand
FISHES OF THE CAMBODIAN MEKONG
Fishes of the Qinling Mountains
Fishes of the Rio das Mortes. Identification and Ecology
Fishes of the River Cai
Fishes of the World
FISHES OF U.P. & BIHAR
Fishes, Fishing implements and methods of Nepal
FOSSIL ATLAS - Fishes
FRESHWATER FISHES OF AUSTRALIA
Freshwater Fishes of Bangladesh
Freshwater Fishes of Bangladesh - 2nd edition
FRESHWATER FISHES OF CALIFORNIA
Freshwater Fishes of Canada
Freshwater Fishes of Costa Rica
Freshwater Fishes of Ghana
Freshwater Fishes of Guangxi Province
Freshwater Fishes of Guangxi, China (Second Edition)
Freshwater Fishes of Japan
Freshwater Fishes of Korea
Freshwater Fishes of Mata Atlantica
Freshwater fishes of Natal
Freshwater Fishes of Northern Vietnam (Internet print)
Freshwater Fishes of Peninsular India
Freshwater Fishes of Peninsular Malaysia
FRESHWATER FISHES OF SOUTHERN AFRICA
Freshwater Fishes of Sri Lanka
Freshwater Fishes of the USSR and adjacent countries - Vol. 1
Freshwater Fishes of the USSR and adjacent countries - Vol. 2
Freshwater Fishes of the USSR and adjacent countries - Vol. 3
freshwater fishes of the world Vol 1 & 2 (black hardback boxed set)
FRESHWATER FISHES OF WESTERN INDONESIA AND SULAWESI
Hamlyn Guide to Aquarium Fishes
Handbook of Darters
Handbook of European Freshwater Fishes
Himalyan Fishes and Fisheries
Histoire Naturelle des Poissons Volumes 1-22
Ichthyology of Nepal - A Study of Fishes of the Himalayan Waters
Identification of Freshwater Fishes of North Vietnam (photocopy)
Identification of the Freshwater Fishes of South Vietnam
Identifying Corydoradine catfishes
Illustrated Fauna and Flora of Korea - Freshwater Fishes
Indochinese Nemacheilines
Inland Fishes of India and adjacent Countries Vols 1 & 2
Inland Fishes of Myanmar
L-Catfishes
Los Peces del Rio Magdalena
Los Peces Argentinos de Agua Dulce
MARINE ATLAS
Naturalists Guide to Aquarium Fish
ORNAMENTAL AQUARIUM FISH OF INDIA
Ornamental Fishes of North East India - An Atlas
Ornamental Fishes of the Western Ghats of India
Peces de los Andes de Colombia
Peces del Catatumbo
Peces del Ibera
Peces del medio Amazonas - Region de Leticia
Peces Ornamentales de Venezuela
Peixes da planície de inundação do alto rio Paraná e áreas adjacentes
Peixes do alto Rio Jurua (Amazonas, Brasil)
Peixes do Mearim. Fishes of the Mearim River
Peixes do Pantanal
Philip's Guide to Freshwater Fish of Britain and
Europe
Poissons d'eaux douces et saumatres de l'Afrique de l'Ouest Tomes I&II
RAINBOWFISHES OF Australia and Papua New Guinea
rasbora
Rasboras
Revision des Synodontis Africains
sharks and loaches
Subterranean Fishes of the World
SYNOPSIS OF FRESHWATER FISHES OF CHINA
The American Darters
The Borneo Suckers
The Catfishes of Africa - A handbook for identification and maintenance
The Cyprinid Fishes of China Vols 1 & 2 (unofficial reprint)
The Fish Fauna of Assam and the Neighbouring North-Eastern States of India
The fishes of Fujian Province Volumes 1 & 2
The Fishes of India Volumes I & II
The Fishes of Lake Rukwa Drainage
The Fishes of Malabar
The Fishes of the Hengduan Mountains Region
The Fishes of the Indo-Australian Archipelago - Volume II
The Fishes of the Indo-Australian Archipelago - Volumes I-XI
The Fishes of the Qinghai-Xizang Plateau
The Fishes of Xinjiang Province
The Fishes of Yunnan, China - Part 1
The Fishes of Yunnan, China - Part 2
The Fresh and Brackish Water Fishes of Lower Guinea - West Central Africa Volumes 1 & 2
The freshwater and estuaries fishes of Hainan Island
The Fresh-water Fishes of British Columbia
The Freshwater Fishes of Central Vietnam
The Freshwater Fishes of China in Coloured Illustrations Volume 1
The Freshwater Fishes of China in Coloured Illustrations Volume 2
The Freshwater Fishes of China in Coloured Illustrations Volume 3
The Freshwater Fishes of Europe Vol 1 Part I
The Freshwater Fishes of Europe Vol 1 Part II
The Freshwater Fishes of Europe Vol 2
The Freshwater Fishes of Europe Vol 5 Part I
The Freshwater Fishes of Europe Vol 5 Part II
The Freshwater Fishes of Europe Vol 5 Part III
The Freshwater Fishes of Europe Vol 8 Part I
The Freshwater Fishes of Europe Vol 8 Part II
The Freshwater Fishes of Europe Vol 9
THE FRESHWATER FISHES OF INDIA,PAKISTAN,BANGLADESH,BURMA AND SRI LANKA-A HANDBOOK
The freshwater fishes of Java, as observed by Kuhl and van Hasselt in 1820-23
The Freshwater Fishes of Kruger national Park
The Freshwater Fishes of Mexico
THE FRESHWATER FISHES OF NORTH BORNEO
THE FRESHWATER FISHES OF SIAM OR THAILAND
The Freshwater Fishes of Thailand
The Freshwater Fishes of the Indian Region
The Freshwater Fishes of Vietnam Volume I
The Freshwater Fishes of Vietnam Volume II
The Freshwater Fishes of Vietnam Volume III
THE FRESHWATER FISHES OF WESTERN BORNEO (KALIMANTAN BARAT, INDONESIA)
The Marine and Freshwater Fishes of Ceylon
The Reed Field Guide to New Zealand Freshwater Fishes
THE WORLD OF CATFISHES
The Fishes of Sichuan
Freshwater Fishes of Central India - A Field Guide
Freshwater Fishes of Iraq
Handbuch der Welskunde
The Freshwater Fishes of the Indian Region 2nd Edition
Wels Atlas 2

See my catfish images at http://www.scotcat.com/thedarkone/thedarkone.htm
November 4, 2010
10:23 pm
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Matt
Málaga, Spain
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Hoping you didn't just type all that out although the evil laugh was appropriate. Nice library. /dry.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="<_ <" border="0" alt="dry.gif">

B & N give no differences whatsoever other than geography with their N. ruppelli occurring in the upper Krishna and N. shimogensis apparently endemic to the Thunga which we already know is wrong! I think... /wacko.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wacko:" border="0" alt="wacko.gif" />

P.S. - any opinions on the genus name?

Cake or death?
November 7, 2010
5:32 pm
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The.Dark.One
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QUOTE (Matt @ Nov 4 2010, 10:06 PM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
P.S. - any opinions on the genus name?

In what sense?

See my catfish images at http://www.scotcat.com/thedarkone/thedarkone.htm
November 7, 2010
7:50 pm
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Matt
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In the sense that it's listed as Nemacheilus elsewhere.

Cake or death?
January 6, 2011
5:38 am
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retro_gk
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shimogensis is considered valid around these parts, as Nemacheilichthys. I was recently shown a rueppeli from around Pune and it does not look like it has ever been in the hobby.

January 6, 2011
8:29 am
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Matt
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Hey Rahul long time no speak! /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> That's good enough for me - thanks for the confirmation.

Cake or death?
February 6, 2011
10:22 pm
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Matt
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Juvenile of the same species?

Attached files

[Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found]

Cake or death?
February 6, 2011
10:50 pm
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Mark Duffill
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I would say so Matt

February 6, 2011
11:34 pm
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Matt
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Cheers Mark. /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" />

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