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Phylogenetic Analysis Of The Genus Rasbora (Teleostei: Cyprinidae).
November 15, 2009
9:34 pm
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Matt
Málaga, Spain
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Oh my this looks to be a biggy. Apparently Rasbora brittani is now Kottelatia brittani (monotypic genus), R. dorsiocellata is Brevibora dorsiocellata (monotypic as well), R. spilocerca is now Rasbosoma spilocerca (monotypic) and R. pauciperforata and gracilis have been moved into Trigonopoma (new genus). I haven't provided a full reference as this isn't in print yet but it's available online here.

Abstract:
A phylogenetic analysis was conducted based on 35 cyprinid taxa, including 29 species of Rasbora, and 41 morphological characters. A strict consensus tree from four equally parsimonious trees recovered rasborins as a monophyletic group characterized by (i) presence of dark supra-anal pigment and subpeduncular streak, (ii) 5–6 branched anal-fin rays, (iii) dorsal-fin insertion 1–3 scales behind pelvic-fin insertion, (iv) lateral process of second vertebra more or less straight, (v) 1–5 more abdominal than caudal vertebrae, (vi) absence of foramen in anterior wall of horizontal limb of the cleithrum, (vii) presence of rasborin process on epibranchial 4, and (viii) interhyal well ossified. Rasbora sensu stricto can be distinguished from all other rasborin genera by the presence of an opercular canal. Four new genera, viz. Brevibora, n. gen., Kottelatia, n, gen., Rasbosoma, n. gen. and Trigonopoma, n. gen., are recognized and described.

I'm going to have a read of this, make the appropriate changes in the Knowledge Base then go for a lie down...

Edit: read it, can't decide which changes to make and thoroughly confused. Do need to lie down though...

Cake or death?
November 16, 2009
9:05 pm
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Bully
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The reading and, understanding, of these papers I will have to leave to you Matt /tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" /> It did catch my attention with R. dorsiocellata becoming Brevibora dorsiocellata as I actually keep these /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

November 17, 2009
9:20 am
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Matt
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Haha thanks Bully (I think). Not sure whether to actually change the genera of the species in the Knowledge Base (I got excited and did so the other night but it´s two mins to change them back) or just make some additional notes about this new paper but leave them all in Rasbora for now. Opinions?

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November 17, 2009
11:42 am
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Bully
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I noticed that you had changed it already /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /> I am not sure how much more work it would mean for you but, it may be an idea to add synonyms into the profiles, this would certainly help in situations such as this. Also, they should also show up on search engines so anyone looking would begin to become aware of any changes.

I'm afraid I don't know enough about the rules of nomenclature to offer an opinion on whether or not you should change the names. I do know that the name Brevibora is quite 'catchy' though /tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" />

BTW, having re-read the notes recently I noticed the information regarding the (presumably) wild-caught specimens having the red colouration, my males appear to have this effect although it is rather muted. I am hopeless at getting photos of these though /sad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad.gif" />

November 17, 2009
12:06 pm
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johnpeten
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QUOTE (Matt @ Nov 17 2009, 03:03 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Opinions?


Matt, modern science has put the whole system of taxonomy (in all fields) onto its head. Our modern geniuses or genii, to be more correct, can now show that all the good old guys, who worked in incredibly difficult locations, were in theory a bunch of amateurs but their names are enshrined in the names of many species and are revered.
This latest interference is causing a complete muddle.
I think that smart people now generally accept that a species description is a general guide. Species found in different locations can have many variations. Aquarium bred fish can have major variations.

I have recently had a go at a group of clowns, one a so called PhD, who had been “investigating” our local water lily. They completely misnamed it, and described it as a Lily found in Europe. I think these people had been smoking too much of our locally grown “Tobacco”
It was amusing to note that they went out of their way not to mention that if eaten the Lily was a hallucinogen, used by the Ancient Maya.
By coincidence I found and photographed this lily hidden in a small lagoon behind a reed bed during my last fishing expedition.
I happen to have, in PDF format, the complete Flora of Guatemala, 5,697 pages. Assembled by the Field Museum of Natural History, Chicago and published in 1977.

John

November 18, 2009
11:46 am
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Matt
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Not a fan of the phylogenetic species concept then John? /laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="Laugh" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" /> Bully yeah we´ve discussed adding synonyms before, maybe it´s a good idea. It would of course mean extra work but as I´m not even a quarter way through editing the information we currently do have it´s not really a big deal. I´ll have a word with Dunc about it. /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" />

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November 18, 2009
1:00 pm
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johnpeten
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QUOTE (Matt @ Nov 18 2009, 05:29 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Not a fan of the phylogenetic species concept then John?

Yes Matt. I think the word is "Old Fashioned". The same way that Yorkshire Pudding should be cooked under the Roast Beef to catch the drippings and not bought frozen in the supermarket.

November 18, 2009
1:45 pm
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Bluedave
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What if your having jam or custard with your yorkshire pud John?

November 18, 2009
4:25 pm
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johnpeten
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QUOTE (Bluedave @ Nov 18 2009, 07:28 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
What if your having jam or custard with your yorkshire pud John?


Is that what people do in "civilised" countries these days?. Disgusting /rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" />

I shall never return to Perfidious Albion.
John

November 18, 2009
4:50 pm
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Matt
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Well you wouldn't catch me near a frozen Yorkshire but I see benefits of modern genetic techniques even if they do sometimes makes things messier as in this case. My main problem with the paper is that these new genera have been erected but not all species of Rasbora were sampled in the study (actually less than half of them). In the discussion section those not sampled are placed into various species groups with the conclusion that they may be moved again following further studies. Harumph. /rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" />

Thing is, if what's there is good enough for Fang and Kullander (who I've been following when editing relevant profiles to date) we should probably change the generic names to match the new work, no? /unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":unsure:" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />

Edit: John, I'm not planning on going back there either mate...

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November 18, 2009
7:07 pm
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johnpeten
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Whenever I look up species I find that Sven Kullander is the Coordinator. Sven and his wife Fang at the Swedish Natural History Museum are obviously top of the heap in ichthyology.
Despite my prejudices I would follow what they said.

November 18, 2009
8:59 pm
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Bluedave
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Whats wrong with Blighty?!

(apart from the weather, and the roads, and the courts and the schools and the tax..... I feel a Life of Brian moment coming on, lol)

November 19, 2009
11:30 am
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retro_gk
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:music: Every genus is sacred :music:

I'd wait a couple of months before changing the entries, Matt. Unless you want to add a footnote to everything listing your reasons for changing the names (or add multiple fields for names).

It'll take months, if not years, for people to use these names in general conversation and the average hobbyist won't care for the finer points of taxonomy.

The phylogenetic species concept raises more questions than it answers, unfortunately.

November 19, 2009
12:43 pm
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Matt
Málaga, Spain
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Thanks for the advice all. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> Final decision then is to leave them all in Rasbora but I'll add a short note to the bottom of the profile briefly outlining the new study.

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