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Puntius Conchonius With 'mirror Carp-like' Condition
November 25, 2008
4:47 am
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Urban Aquarist
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Was at an LFS 2 weeks ago and they had their typical puntius conchonius tank(of which were 100% male /wacko.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wacko:" border="0" alt="wacko.gif" /> )-I was about to move on when something caught my eye.

Now..I'm not much genetic mutations, but this fish was exceptionally attractive /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" /> . So now I have this one 'special' puntius conchonius swimming around in one of my tanks at home.

I have been trying really hard to get a photo- but at photo time the fish goes to the back of the tank and I can't seem to get a focus-and zooming is a failure.

Anyway, this fish has 'bald' patches where there are no scales and there are scales on the fish, but they are 5-6 times the size of a normal scale. I've seen this on some of the carp I catch when I go fishing-I've heard them called mirror carp. The bright orangish-red color is actually quite stunning coming off of this fish with larger than normal scales. I know puntius and common carp are related so maybe it's just a 'cyprinid' thing(the genetic scale difference).

If I can ever get a good,clear photo I will post here.

-Urb

November 25, 2008
9:29 am
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Mark Duffill
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The mirror carp came about by selective breeding, Monks in Britain were the first to start it and started off with wild common carp and through selective breeding and crude hybridisation came up with the mirror carp which was easier to prepare because it had less scales. Then they went further and created the leather carp which apart from a row of small scales along its back and some on its caudal peduncle are totally scaleless and so even easier to prepare as food.

The fish you have could well be just a one off genetic mutation or someone could be messing with them and these fish will start appearing everywhere, it would be good to see a photo if possible.

November 25, 2008
2:02 pm
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Matt
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Sounds...interesting... /blink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blink:" border="0" alt="blink.gif" />

Cake or death?
November 25, 2008
4:17 pm
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Mark Duffill
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Ive talked to a couple of friends this afternoon and they haven't heard of any hybrid rosy barbs coming out of Eastern Europe and haven't seen anything unusual in the trade so this could well be a one off.

It will be interesting to hear if anyone sees anymore or they start appearing on a more regular basis /blink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blink:" border="0" alt="blink.gif" />

November 25, 2008
4:44 pm
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mickthefish
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thats what we need the pic, i'm as curious as you two now.
there has been one hybrid form with a rosy and ?.

mick

November 26, 2008
10:40 am
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David Marshall
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Hey Folks

While visiting an aquatic retail outlet, last Tuesday, I was surprised to find some bright gold coloured barbs for sale under an Odessa label. It was clear to see that these fish were of a Rosy x Odessa cross.

The same outlet also had for sale x-ray, with fainter colour and visible working body parts, barbs and it was easy to see that these were from the same 'line' as the above.

Also around is a bright pink coloured Sucking loach (G. a. variant) with deep black eyes.

Regards David

December 9, 2008
1:37 am
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Urban Aquarist
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BUMP:

While these may not be the 'good, clear photos' I promised, they are the best I can do and it was a pain too.

I had to catch this b*gg*r and place him into an uninhabited nano tank I have, then I placed a glass slide behind him to try to 'restrain' him a little for photography. As you can see by the photos I didn't do a very good job as he wouldn't hold still /mad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":mad:" border="0" alt="mad.gif" /> . I rewarded his stress with food upon restocking him in my community puntius tank though.

This fishy is currently 2 inches.

-Urb

Attached files

[Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found]

December 9, 2008
8:44 pm
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Urban Aquarist
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Yikes, I got asterisked. I didn't realize b-u-g-g-e-r was a bad word?! /huh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":huh:" border="0" alt="huh.gif" />

December 10, 2008
1:59 pm
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Matt
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That bugger looks like the form that's sold as "metallic" rosy barb in the UK Urb. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> I guess they're selectively-bred for the reflective scales?

No asterisks here...weird...

Cake or death?
December 10, 2008
6:06 pm
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Urban Aquarist
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They have 'metallic' ones here too. None of them, however, had scales this size and smooth scaleless areas to boot.

I just wish I could get better pics to show the 3-5 Millimeter scales this 2 inch fish has. The rest of the fish in the store had more typical 1-1 1/2 millimeter size scales.

Another weird thing about the scales on this Rosy-is how the scale size varies and is not uniform.

-Urb

December 10, 2008
6:46 pm
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Malti
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b*gg*r

just testing /laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="Laugh" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" />

urb what cam do u have?

December 11, 2008
12:31 am
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Urban Aquarist
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QUOTE (Malti @ Dec 10 2008, 10:29 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
urb what cam do u have?

Samsung S860 8.1 Megapixel

March 3, 2009
3:24 pm
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gib
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Hi, i joined because i could find nothing else on Google about Rosy Barbs with scales similar to a Mirror Carp. I wonder if any consensus has been reached?

The reason i googled was that i bought a male that looks exactly like the one in your pics a few weeks ago, together with 2 normally scaled females. He was the only Mirror Rosy in the LFS holding tank. Quarantined in a planted 70L tank and subsequently moved to my community tank. Yesterday noticed that the 70L is alive with fry.

I have left the fluval 2 internal running - it's one of the new style so has clogged quickly and doesn't have much suck. My feeling is to leave things as they are seeing as lots of the fry are now 3mm. I have no idea what they have been eating but now seem to be taking powdered flake.

I'm hoping a proportion of the fry will carry the mirror mutation, they are still too small to really tell but some seem to have glittery flecks so it looks hopeful.

I live in Essex, England. What's the best way to find homes for all these babies?

I'm also happy to chat on msn - gibbb9 at hotmail dot com

gib

March 3, 2009
7:57 pm
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Reva
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I think I just bought some of these myself! /ohmy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":o" border="0" alt="ohmy.gif" /> I was replacing dither fish that my loach killed, and I thought "wow those rosey barbs are Beeeautiful! and bought seven of them to go with my four that were left. Thanks for this post! wow

December 20, 2009
3:31 am
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bwleung
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QUOTE (Urban Aquarist @ Nov 25 2008, 03:30 PM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Anyway, this fish has 'bald' patches where there are no scales and there are scales on the fish, but they are 5-6 times the size of a normal scale. I've seen this on some of the carp I catch when I go fishing-I've heard them called mirror carp. The bright orangish-red color is actually quite stunning coming off of this fish with larger than normal scales. I know puntius and common carp are related so maybe it's just a 'cyprinid' thing(the genetic scale difference).

They have 'metallic' ones here too. None of them, however, had scales this size and smooth scaleless areas to boot.

I just wish I could get better pics to show the 3-5 Millimeter scales this 2 inch fish has. The rest of the fish in the store had more typical 1-1 1/2 millimeter size scales.

Another weird thing about the scales on this Rosy-is how the scale size varies and is not uniform.

-Urb

Dear Urban Aquarist,

I've seen the photos, however they are inconclusive. It is possible that you have a mirrorscale Puntius conchonius - Rosy barb.

However, it is just possible that the smooth scalesless' bald' areas have opaque 'nacreous' scales instead of metallic scales.

Let me explain in more detail. Mirror carp is a genetic mutation, the same mutation could occur in Rosy barb theoretically, but none has been recognised to date.

However, it is just as possible that your fish is a nacreous rosy barb instead, ie, a rosy barb with both metallic scales and opaque scales, which does look bald as they are non-reflective, but they are still scales. Therefore the fish look bald as these opaque scales do not reflect. If the area is truely bald, no scales, then what you have is a 'scattered' variety of the Rosy barb equivalent to the mirror carp.

However you said the scales are larger than normal. On the basis they are not overlapping reflective scales adjacent to each other, and that each scale are reflective and larger than normal, and where bald areas are truely devoid of opaque scales, then you really do have a scattered variety of the mirrorscale rosy barb.

Please look after this fish, and maintain this genetic trait by breeding it with females rosy barbs. Then raise the frys and breed it back to this male rosy barb. Some of the frys will be like this male parent. Keep inbreeding the children and grandchilden back to this male parent to fix the mirrorscale trait. you have something very unique if you do have a mirrorscale rosy barb.

PS: Male Rosy barb sperm has been used to hybridise with female mirrorscale European carp eggs by scientists and resulted in linear mirrorscale hybrids, however, they are all sterile. Your fish from the photo is not a hybrid, this I can confirm.

Also, the golden form of rosy barb is not a hybrid either, just a yellow colour variant, as all hybrids between rosy barbs with other barbs have only resulted in sterile offsprings to date.

Kind regards,

Bill

Melbourne, Australia

December 20, 2009
11:42 pm
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Matt
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Hi Bill do you think this is a case of random genetic mutation then? In that case how would you explain the other, similar fish that members here are reporting?

Cake or death?
December 21, 2009
7:27 am
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bwleung
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QUOTE (Matt @ Dec 21 2009, 10:25 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi Bill do you think this is a case of random genetic mutation then? In that case how would you explain the other, similar fish that members here are reporting?

Dear Matt,

My personal views are:

If Urban Aquarist has a mirrorscale rosy barb of the scattered variety, then it is random mutation then for mirrorscale genetic mutation. This is on the premise the bald area are truely devoid of scales and not covered with opaque scales. The mutation for mirrorscale is one out of two gene has mutated, giving the mirrorscale condition, while the other gene steps in to overcome the pliotropic effect,s thus the condition is not lethal in the rosy barb. As rosy barb has 2n = 50 for the no. of chromosomes. This condition is theorectically posssible, as there are scale loss mutation in bracydanio rerio, zebra danios, and they are 2n=50 also. The genetics behind mirrorscale has been identified by Max Planck institute in Gernmany in around Oct this year.

On the otherhand:
The other reported threads such as the ones from Essex England, without photos are reporting similar ones with metallic scales. Again, rosy barbs have been dometiscated for so many generations, many of the males no longer have metallic reflections like their wild ancestors. Other have enahnced metallic glint and with silver females instead of olive females. Many tend to show nacreous scales, especially the yellow variant morphs of the rosy barbs, the males often do not show much metallic scales anymore.

If I have to take a punt, I do not think the bald area of the fish that was photographed have no scales on the non-reflective area, rather I think there are nacreous opaque scales there. The reason is just behind the head of the fish in the photos, you can see the net like markings of where each of the scales are distributed. This suggests to me there are scales there, but they are opaque. Leather scaleless carp do not show net like markeings, but a parallel lee-wave pattern neat their lateral line instead.

Somone really have to take them out with a tweezer to see if they can pluck sclaes out of the bald areas per se or have really good cameras with macro function to take good photos.

The case of rosy barbs with nacreous scales (ie, a mix of metallic and opaque scales) outweights the chance of rosy barbs with mirrorscales. Rosy barb reflective scales are strongest generally near the abdomen. The fact is, if they are truely mirrorscales with bald ares, they should also appear in female rosy barbs also, as mirror scale pattern mutation is not sex-linked.

The fact they are reported both in the US and UK points to the fact that either we are looking at nacreous opaque scale types, which is common in rosy barbs nowadays, instead of mirrorscale, unless both UK and Us source came from the same fish farm(s) locale, ie, the mutation is established and a sustainable population already exists. It is far more easier to be misidentified and misunderstood to think a fish with both metallic and opaques scales as mirrorsscale when they are not, ie the opaque areas are not really scaleless.

http://namazuya.ocnk.net/product/415
Above is link to a naturally occuring nacreous mutation of a type of wild goldfish in Japan, carassius langsdorfii. Something akin to the rosy barb we are observing in the photos. Where the metallic scales overlap among the opaque scales, they look enlarged.

Someone really need to take a closer look at what they got here and know what they are looking at.

Hope that helps, Matt.

Kind regards,

Bill

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