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Puntius Denisonii
April 29, 2008
7:37 pm
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ulster exile
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In the Knowledge base (which I love btw /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" /> ) the minimum tank size is 110l, which I've never seen before - everywhere I've read says 200l min. Is the length of the tank therefore more important in keeping these fish since they're lovers of fast flowing stream-like conditions and are fast movers themselves?

Also, I read recently that Puntius Denisonii have been mistaken for Puntius Chalakudiensis which grow larger and are more aggressive. Now, I can't find the reference for love nor money /rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" /> but this reference also described the larger species as being the one which grew to 6" (15cm) whereas the Denisonii are smaller and in reality grow to more like 4" (10cm). Most references to P. Denisonii use the 6"/15cm size reference though...which is correct or is it a case that there is so much confusion over the two, than there isn't a definitive answer?

Possibly the reason that I am curious about both of these issues is that these are the only fish which I have ached to own but ruled out because I felt my tank wasn't suitable (100cm x 60ishcm x 41cm just over 200l). Whilst I wouldn't have them now anyway, the fish still intrigue me /laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="Laugh" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" />

April 29, 2008
9:00 pm
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Matt
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Hope you don't mind but I've shifted this into the tropical freshwater forum. Thanks for the input on tank size for P. denisonii; I think you're quite right and have changed the information in the profile.

The reference regarding P. chalakkudiensis, hmmmm /tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" /> As far as I'm aware P. chalakkudiensis is the larger species, despite being listed as smaller by Fishbase and others. I will check this and get back to you....but I'm almost sure it's known to grow to 7" or so.

Thanks also for the positive feedback; I'm really glad to know that people are using and enjoying the knowledge base. It's FAR from complete and only a certain percentage of the profiles are at the standard we're aiming for. There should be significant improvements happening over the next few months so keep your eyes peeled for some fantastic new images, among other things. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Cake or death?
April 29, 2008
9:09 pm
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ulster exile
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Lol sorry about the incorrect placement /blush.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blush:" border="0" alt="blush.gif" /> Thanks for moving it for me.

Look forward to seeing what you can gather about the chalakudriensis - I'd been looking, but have struggled to get something anywhere close to a definitive answer /wacko.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wacko:" border="0" alt="wacko.gif" />

Lastly, I look forward to seeing the changes /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

May 4, 2008
12:27 pm
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Matt
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Ok it seems that P. chalakkudiensis is definitely the larger fish; they've been seen up to 8" SL! /ohmy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":o" border="0" alt="ohmy.gif" /> The two are easy to identify too, chalakkudiensis has a less-pointed head than denisonii and black markings in the dorsal. The one that's imported in large numbers these days is denisonii.

To make things even more complicated, the fish now known as P. assimilis/Mahecola barb was being sold as P. chalakkudiensis for a while due to a mistake by an Indian exporter when chalakkudiensis was first described. /wacko.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wacko:" border="0" alt="wacko.gif" /> Pics below for comparison, top one is chalakkudiensis (best pic I could find), bottom one is denisonii.

Attached files

[Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found]

Cake or death?
May 4, 2008
11:32 pm
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ulster exile
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Wow Matt, excellant work /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" /> 10/10 for getting the p chalukudiensis pic too as it illustrates the differences very well. Just to clarify, the first pic is of an adult is it? Just wondering about the actual bulkiness of it compared to the p. denisonii, which is obviously a lot more SAE like in shape (ie fat!)

May 4, 2008
11:33 pm
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dunc
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I really love the denisonii.. just a shame you need a beast of a tank for a decent shoal.

May 4, 2008
11:39 pm
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ulster exile
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That's not what I'd call a shame Dunc, I call that a reason /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

When I move house (not that I can for a couple of years) I'll be upgrading tanks (at least a Rena Aqualife 350) and guess what will be going in there... /wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

May 4, 2008
11:44 pm
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dunc
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Heheh good choice /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> I have a 5fter but it's got my Satanopercoids in.. so not really room for the denisonii.

May 4, 2008
11:48 pm
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Matt
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One of my dreams is to have a massive tank set up as an Asian stream biotope with denisonii, Barilius and P. assimilis /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /> The chalakkudiensis pic is of an old and very knackered specimen that lives in a display tank at BAE in Bolton. Presumably a healthier fish would be fuller in the body. Funny you should mention the similarity to SAEs; I've seen denisonii listed as a Crossochelius on more than one occasion. Puntius is such a confusing genus. /wacko.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wacko:" border="0" alt="wacko.gif" />

Cake or death?
May 4, 2008
11:54 pm
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ulster exile
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It has been suggested that they be re-labelled crossocheilus instead of puntius hasn't it? Their likeness to SAE's is probably part of the reason why I like them so much - I totally love my SAE's and the Denisonii are so similar, except from the colour differences and lack of barbels on the denisonii. Even the apparent texture of the scales appears the same on both fish.

May 5, 2008
12:06 am
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Matt
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Yeah there was a rumour a revision was being conducted a couple of years back. Nothing must have come of it as it's still a Puntius /laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="Laugh" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" /> Here's another (blurry) pic of P. chalakkudiensis that illustrates the difference in dorsal patterning.

Attached files

[Image Can Not Be Found]

Cake or death?
May 28, 2008
4:33 pm
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Matt
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The plot thickens...there's a Heiko Bleher interview that discusses P. chalakkudiensis/denisonii here BUT the fish concerned don't have the black dorsal markings. This would suggest the existence of a third denisonii-type fish or that Heiko could only get denisonii for the display. Hmmm...

Cake or death?
May 28, 2008
5:57 pm
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Matt
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I put a query up on the feedback bit under the interview and Matt Clarke (the author of the article) came back with the following:

"Hi Matt,
I've heard various reports of being able to distinguish the two species on the basis of differences in the dorsal/caudal fin markings, as well as the colour and shape of the red stripe. I'm not sure that any of these characters are particularly reliable aids to identifying the two fish.

I saw some of the early "denisonii" imports, which are now believed to have been denisonii, and these definitely looked like those to my eye. My gut feeling on seeing them, before checking the label, was that they looked like challakudiensis.

I've been completely unsuccessful in trying to track down a copy of the original description of P. challakudiensis, which I assume provides an accurate diagnosis allowing you to separate the two species, probably on something more than colour alone. If it doesn't, then a revision of this little group must be sorely needed.

Perhaps Heiko will be able to clarify this."

He's quite right of course, colour can never really be taken as an accurate indicator of species without having read the relevant scientific paper(s). I´m still 100% positive that the fish in that video are P. denisonii though. /rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" /> /tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" />

Cake or death?
May 28, 2008
7:41 pm
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ulster exile
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Matt, two words...you rock!

I'd almost forgotten about this, but have found your updates informative and helpful - thanks /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" />

May 28, 2008
10:21 pm
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Matt
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No problem at all, I'm genuinely interested myself! More because I've never seen that fish with the dorsal spot among denisonii imports; I still think they are two different fish. I'm going to try and get a copy of the description paper for chalakkudiensis and see where that takes us...

Cake or death?
June 16, 2008
11:27 am
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Matt
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Still no joy on the paper (I´ll keep looking) but Dunc and I saw a tank full of P. chalakkudiensis at Pier Aquatics last week and every single one of them had the dorsal marking and a significantly different head profile to denisonii. Once you´ve seen them alive there´s no mistaking the two species for me. By the way just to point out that the correct spelling of the species name is chalakkudiensis. /tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" />

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June 16, 2008
12:41 pm
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dunc
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Yeah indeed - they looked like different fishes even to my inexperienced eyes. The head on the chalakkudiensis was much more rounded than the denisonii.

June 23, 2008
11:47 am
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Sojapat
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Yes I too saw the tank of Puntius at Pier Aquatics /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" /> /ph34r.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":ph34r:" border="0" alt="ph34r.gif" />
I was the one that took the blurry picture ..and posted it on Petfrd /angry.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":angry:" border="0" alt="angry.gif" />
If you were to keep The 2 species you would definatley see the diference in their behavoiur
the chalakkudiensis is a much more aggresive fish .
The 2 species are found together but the river that they come from has a fork ..
chalakkudiensis in one side denisonii in the other but where the rivers meet you can find both .
I disgused this with my exporter from India.
Buy the denisonii if you want a peaceful tank ..

June 23, 2008
1:07 pm
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Matt
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Hmm I recognise that username. /tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" /> Hope you don´t mind me nicking the picture, I apologise if the angry face is directed at me. We were in the shop with Mick Wright who spent most of his time catching loaches. /ph34r.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":ph34r:" border="0" alt="ph34r.gif" /> Thanks a lot for the info. It´s particularly interesting as it conflicts with that PFK interview.... /rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" /> Do all chalakkudiensis have the dark dorsal marking Sojapat?

Cake or death?
June 23, 2008
8:48 pm
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Sojapat
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Hi , Yes so far they are showing bigger stocky fish with more green and less vivid markings but all had black in the dorsal.
I asked the exporter to send me some bigger sized chalakkudiensis .. They absolouteley are nutters
I got 6 pcs @7" they had to be seperated in the end .
They fought all the time .
I will try to get the names of the rivers from him .
They are nowhere as nice looking or sociable as denisonii
I didnt read the PFK article as I think it is behind the times
They tend to write about fishes we had sometimes years earleyer (:
As for the picture ... I wont moan at you it was a blurred shot taken with a poor cammera
The good news is the cammera was stolen ..
Maybe I will get a better one soon ..

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