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Questions On Crossocheilus
June 10, 2009
4:16 pm
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Matt
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Next thing that needs done is to shift a few genera out of the horribly-named 'loaches and algae eaters' section and just rename it 'loaches' temporarily I think. First one of these is Crossocheilus and after reading the last issue of TAG I've been dreading this. /wacko.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wacko:" border="0" alt="wacko.gif" />

First one up: C. atrilimes. Mark mate any chance of telling us how you made a positive id on this boy? Is counting the scales between vent and anal fin the only sure-fire way?

[Image Can Not Be Found]

Ps - sorry if I'm flitting quickly through different genera at the minute, my better-looking half has exams this month and I'm bored out of my wits.

Attached files

[Image Can Not Be Found]

Cake or death?
June 10, 2009
4:48 pm
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Mark Duffill
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To be honest Matt that is what they came in as and from the few bits of info I could find for atrilimes I was pretty sure thats what these are, I think there was a thread about atrilimes on petfrd a while ago.

I have some more recent pics:
DSC_2156.jpgImage Enlarger


DSC_2155.jpgImage Enlarger

DSC_2158.jpgImage Enlarger

June 10, 2009
7:50 pm
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Matt
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Beautiful pics Mark. /cool.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="B)" border="0" alt="cool.gif" /> Have you seen this?

Cake or death?
June 11, 2009
8:13 am
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retro_gk
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Niederle's summary is a very well done review of the literature, I remember the discussion on Petfrd.

June 11, 2009
9:28 am
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Matt
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After reading his stuff plus various threads on Petfrd I'm convinced 'C. siamensis' doesn't exist other than as a synonym. Be interested to know if you think the same Rahul?

For those who don't know what we're on about and want to know more read this thread.

Mark if you don't mind how big are your fish and do they have a black marking covering the ventral area just in front of the anal fin?

Cake or death?
June 11, 2009
11:53 am
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Mark Duffill
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All 5 of my fish are around 60mm - 65mm TL, from what I can see no they dont have any sort of black marking covering the ventral area.

June 11, 2009
12:52 pm
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David Marshall
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Hey

Matt wait until you tackle Garra - you will be reduced to tears by this 'catch all' genus.

Josef's (Niederle) World exclusive article in Aquarium Gazette Issue 8 was wonderful to work on and the photographic contributions from Mad Duff, Andy, Dick and Steven etc. added brilliantly to those Josef had sent. This Issue is still available and we have a supplement page, at Josef's request, in Issue 9.

Regards David

June 11, 2009
1:33 pm
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retro_gk
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The discussion on Petfrd did not close the story on what the "Siamese algae eater" in the hobby is.

Do atrilimes, langei, nigriloba and the suggested "lemon fin" cover all the available Siamese algae eaters in the hobby? Assuming people know what a G. cambodigensis looks like and pseudobagroides is not collected for the hobby?

My take is

i) The fish described as C. siamensis belongs in a different genus. This fish may or may not be present in the hobby.

ii) There are fish in the hobby as C. siamensis that may represent new species, either new Crossocheilus / Epalzeorhynchus or whatever genus the fish in (a) is placed.

June 11, 2009
7:51 pm
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andy rushworth
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Hi Retro , I think Nederle did quite a bit of work and as you say the Type specimen for C.siamensis was possibly not a crossocheilus :thumbsup

Retro, do you know anyting about Pseudobagroides ? does it even look like a crossocheilus ?

As for G.cambodgiensis being confused with Crossocheilus sp/Siamensis the blame lies with a lot of the aquarium books ,magazines etc , and under scrutiny is really quite different in appearance and behaviour !

June 12, 2009
12:58 am
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Matt
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QUOTE (retro_gk @ Jun 11 2009, 01:16 PM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Do atrilimes, langei, nigriloba and the suggested "lemon fin" cover all the available Siamese algae eaters in the hobby?

Very good point. *scratches chin*

Apparently C. pseudobagroides has several dark blotches on the body so in theory should be easy to identify but all I have is what's written in Niederle's work. Would be interested to know more. Also I was under the impression that C. siamensis was originally described as Epalzeorhynchos siamensis, and that the fish used as the basis for moving it into Crossocheilus was later described as C. atrilimes by Kottelat so at the moment the original name is valid. Or something. /wacko.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wacko:" border="0" alt="wacko.gif" />

Aye David, I'm s**ting myself about Garra to be honest and it's the next genus on the list after this one! /laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="Laugh" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" /> Here's G. cambodgiensis (Mark's fish) seeing as it's being discussed:

Attached files

[Image Can Not Be Found]

Cake or death?
June 12, 2009
9:35 am
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David Marshall
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Hey retro

Josef's TAG article, which I do not want to compromise, was written after the Petfrd pieces so goes a little further in conclusions.

Regards David

June 12, 2009
12:08 pm
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Matt
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Hi Mark how is their temperament?

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June 12, 2009
3:21 pm
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retro_gk
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David, hopefully Josef will discuss his findings in more detail once the article is out.

Andy, no, I am not familiar with pseudobagroides at all.

Matt, if the reshuffling was as you described, then the name E. siamensis should be available, but, what does the fish described as such look like? /tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" /> 😕

June 13, 2009
12:09 pm
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Matt
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Here are images of the E. siamensis holotype from Mr Niederle's site:

[Image Can Not Be Found]

[Image Can Not Be Found]

[Image Can Not Be Found]

The TAG article is already out or have I missed something? Thanks for the input lads; I knew these striped chaps were going to be 'fun'! /laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="Laugh" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" />

Attached files

[Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found]

Cake or death?
June 13, 2009
8:16 pm
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andy rushworth
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Hi Matt , as you say the striped Crosso's are going to be fun /wacko.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wacko:" border="0" alt="wacko.gif" /> my take on them is this Atrilimes is similar looking to the fish known as Siamensis ,but is more robust , and has yellowish [lemon] fins also the stripe seem to be slightly thicker posteriorly BUT the band goes into the caudal same as Siamensis, now the fun begins according to Niederle's work the type specimen is not the fish we call Siamensis ? which I guess means the popular fish in the trade that comes under the name Siamensis is undescribed ? or is it Epalzeorhynchus ?
As far as Bagroides goes I dont know if it is a group of fishes or just one fish ? as it is supposed to have blotches , the only one that has what could loosly be described as blotches is Crossocheilus Nigriloba from Borneo , most of the time they look like Siamensis? with a reddish lower lobe to the caudal , but when the mood takes them [ stress perhaps ] the lateral stripe breaks up into about five blotches , but I'm pretty sure Niederle'is aware of Nigriloba so I doubt it being them ?

June 14, 2009
10:48 am
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Matt
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QUOTE (andy rushworth @ Jun 13 2009, 08:59 PM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
which I guess means the popular fish in the trade that comes under the name Siamensis is undescribed ?

Hi Andy do you mean the slim fish from central/western Thailand? Can it be C. langei?

Here are some images of plain-bodied Crossocheilus I have to add. All C. latius?

Attached files

[Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found]

Cake or death?
June 14, 2009
12:51 pm
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andy rushworth
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Hi Matt , not overly sure about Langei ? this fish used to come into BAS and looked just like Thai Siamensis ? the ones that BAS imported under that name were from Borneo !

What are the distribution records for Langei ? are they Indonesian ,and or Thailand fish ?

Good pics of Latius Matt ! there is a very closely related fish called Crossocheilus latius burmanicus ,looks pretty similar in shape to Latius but has a darkish lateral band aka Siamensis , but dont worry its easy to tell apart /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" /> I've seen these a couple of times but not purchased , they were larger than I care to buy , much prefer to grow on and observe different stages , if there are any ? the Burmanicus I saw were at least 5 inch , but skinny !

June 14, 2009
12:58 pm
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Matt
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Cheers Andy langei was described from Palembang which I'm sure you know is a town in the south of Sumatra. Apart from that all I've been able to find is speculation that it might also exist on Borneo and in Peninsular Malaysia/Thailand. Nothing definite. That's why I asked as if langei isn't found on the mainland then the Thai fish may well be undescribed???

What do you guys make of these? I've added the first one to the incomplete langei profile but now I think it might not be. Last pic is one of Mick's:

Attached files

[Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found]

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June 14, 2009
1:59 pm
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andy rushworth
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Hi Matt , it has to be said the more pics you see of striped Crosso's the more varied they look /wacko.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wacko:" border="0" alt="wacko.gif" /> but I have to say the ones I got as Atrilimes do seem different than my Siamensis ? in that they seem to interact a little more than the Siamensis? do, did when similar age/size like a gentle peck order [very gentle] more of a reassuring touch .

I suppose one way of trying to find differences would be to get decent sized groups of both fish [atrilimes/siamensis?] and see if they interacted or treated each other obliviously ? apparently the Siamensis? faster flowing parts of stream, hence more slimline ?

June 14, 2009
11:46 pm
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Matt
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Andy to which fish do you refer to as siamensis? Is there a pic in this thread? I'm getting confused... /wacko.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wacko:" border="0" alt="wacko.gif" />

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