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Sawbwa
August 21, 2011
12:42 am
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mikev
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I've been trying to breed these chaps, and possibly a few observations can be of use for the profile, here.

Firstly, they are mop-spawners, not scatterers. They are pretty malignant egg-eaters, so my yields are very poor despite having a well-conditioned group. Temperature is very important, I had to bring down the entire fishroom to 77F (summer /sad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad.gif" /> ) to get eggs from them. Water hardness matters too, I tried initially to maintain them at TDS=150 (fishroom default -- easier for me) with almost no eggs, but at current TDS of 350 things improved. Water hardness is even more important for fry, I lost all that I tried to raise at 150 within 2-3 after them becoming free-swimming, whereas at 350 they are doing fine.

Now, the fry is very large (larger than any rainbow or danio fry I've seen) but surprisingly slow in accepting artemia, it took 5-6 days (cf. profile:8) on paramecium and APR at 80F. The cause seems to be that their digestive system is underdeveloped comparing to typical fry, so they can eat only a small amount of food. A typical fry of any kind once they can take artemia would quickly show an orange ball of the stomach.. but sawbwa initially shows only a thin orange line (intestines) with no stomach bulb... even after 10 days of artemia-eating, the bulb is limited:
http://www.micropress-inc.com/.....wa_fry.jpg
The implication is that they would do better if fed often, I did it 3-4 times per day. Additional reason is that they prefer to feed in mid-water, not from the surface, and multiple feedings give them more chances to intercept the food.
And the reason the photos are so awful is that they are transparent...very hard to spot even in empty tank.

Hopefully this is of some use.

August 21, 2011
7:32 am
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Graham Ramsay
Blairgowrie - UK
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Good info thanks.

My biggest problem with this species is finding females. I have a tank full of males just now. If anyone knows where I can get S. resplendens females can they let me know?

August 30, 2011
9:41 am
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Matt
Málaga, Spain
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Very good Mike, thanks a lot. /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" /> What units are you measuring hardness in please?

Cake or death?
August 30, 2011
10:21 pm
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mikev
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Any time, Matt, I'm having fun with them. /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

Total dissolved solids as measured by a TDS meter, I believe to convert to dGH you divide by 17.86...so you need around 20 dGH for them to breed and fry to grow.

Strangely, D.erythromicron come from the same lake and don't seem to need this extra hardness... I have them self-breeding at TDS=150.

OFT, one more species that may need it is Oryzias "Kendari". I have both them and O.woworae ... one species or not (I doubt this), O.woworae produce eggs at 150, "Kendari" don't... I'm shifting them to harder water slowly, we'll see what happens in two weeks.

More things noticed:
* the older fry does not seem to be much into cannibalism... right now I have 0.5" well formed fry that looks and behaves a lot like adult boraras coexisting with a couple that are not yet artemia-capable (very few eggs...but things are improving with the lower temperature now).
* one cannot delay much feeding the fry that becomes free-swimming... I normally transfer all hatched fry from their container to tank in the evenings, a few hour delay does not hurt danios/bows/killies etc and it is easier for me to do all at once... but I lost a couple of sawbwa with such delays.

September 26, 2011
10:10 am
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Matt
Málaga, Spain
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Mike, do you have any idea if eggs are deposited singly or in batches?

Graham, can you bel¡eve I came across a tank full of females with no males here in Barcelona this week?? Perhaps they're sending all the girls here!

Cake or death?
September 26, 2011
3:20 pm
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paul thompson
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QUOTE (mikev @ Aug 30 2011, 11:04 PM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Any time, Matt, I'm having fun with them. /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

Total dissolved solids as measured by a TDS meter, I believe to convert to dGH you divide by 17.86...so you need around 20 dGH for them to breed and fry to grow.

Just a word of caution here regarding trying to convert TDS readings to dGH. I'm by no means an expert but I've been informed that a conversion from TDS to dGH is not possible? I can remember many years ago boiling some water to reduce carbonate hardness and did a TDS test before and after I boiled the water. The reading on the TDS meter was significantly higher after the water was boiled! I'd made the mistake of using an aluminum pan to boil the water and the aluminum had leached into the water causing an increase in TDS. Using a Tetra titration kit however, showed that boiling the water had indeed reduced KH to zero.

We need to be very careful using our very basic testing methods / kits. E.g. let's say we wanted to reduce the pH of our water. We could use peat to reduce the pH to a 'desired' level or pee in the water and achieve the same readings. Similarly, we don't know what 'elements' we are measuring when we test for hardness usining a TDS meter - this just tells us the total disolved solids and not what they consist of . . .

Food for thought I hope?

Paul

September 26, 2011
3:40 pm
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Colin
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yeah this came up before in a topic where TDS was being discussed - a TDS meter is a good way of showing how close to pure some water is but it cant tell you what it is that is in the water - I think yoghurt was my example lol /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

September 26, 2011
5:18 pm
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mikev
NYC
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QUOTE (Matt @ Sep 26 2011, 10:53 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Mike, do you have any idea if eggs are deposited singly or in batches?

Seems like single and in very small quantities.

After three months of checking the mop daily I only have around 15 babies (with a couple of egg/fry losses at most)... the eggs are very few. I found two eggs a couple of time only...

TDS< ->gH conversion generally not possible, NaCl (salt) registers as TDS and not as gH. However for the values I gave conversion with the factor of 18 is correct (my water happens to be RO + RO mix that obeys the conversion factor and has no salt and like).

A bigger question I'd love the answer to is if it is TDS or gH that is important for fish in this or other cases. I suspect that TDS is more important, consider adding salt for livebearers or say c.eremius to simulate harder water?

September 26, 2011
5:24 pm
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Graham Ramsay
Blairgowrie - UK
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QUOTE (Matt @ Sep 26 2011, 10:53 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Mike, do you have any idea if eggs are deposited singly or in batches?

Graham, can you bel¡eve I came across a tank full of females with no males here in Barcelona this week?? Perhaps they're sending all the girls here!

My kids will be in Barcelona next week. I'll get them to bring some back /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

September 26, 2011
8:18 pm
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Matt
Málaga, Spain
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I think TDS may be important but maybe not in a generalised way e.g. the Cualac here seem to require gypsum, or at least potassium and sulphates, in the water to breed successfully, but guess this is more about the particular type of dissolved material rather than simply a 'high TDS' figure? /huh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":huh:" border="0" alt="huh.gif" />

Graham are you serious? Can take them to the shop in question if so (should they agree of course)!

Mike - any observations as to how the eggs are attached to the substrate?

Cake or death?
October 12, 2011
6:34 am
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mikev
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Matt -- sorry for missing the question.

They are mop spawners and I don't know whether it is hair threads (like bows) or glue (like cories)... probably the same as with plant-spawning rasboras. No idea if they would try to spawn into the substrate when no plants are available.

One more datum: one of the oldest babies showed male markings yesterday....slight, but unmistakable, it was hatched at the very beginning of August, I unfortunately did not record the date, but under 2.5 months at around 78F-80F,...likely not fertile yet, but 4 months or less to sexual maturity now seems likely. I may put a mop into the fry tank just for the heck of it.

October 12, 2011
7:53 am
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N0body Of The Goat
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Mikev, how aggressive have you found the males to be, both the adults and the youngsters? What sort of ratio of females:males have you got in your setup?

Constantly juggling mainly African riverine fish between 6 tanks, from 54 to 566l in size!
October 12, 2011
6:49 pm
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mikev
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I have not seen any aggression whatsoever...minimal threatening moves at most. I never counted the ratio... I think slightly more males than females in the adult group of 12... 7:5 or 8:4. Fry/Juveniles are very tolerant toward smaller siblings, I put new fry together with 1 month old (3:1 or 4:1 size ratio) and no losses, and no interest from the juveniles toward the newborns...

I need to mention that the tank is small (5.5g)...it is remotely possible that in a large tank they decide to set up territories and things will be more messy.

April 22, 2013
11:34 am
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BigTom
Edinburgh
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Holy shmoly these fry are small. Moved a trio of mine to a densely planted 25l with a mesh bottom a week ago, and just saw my first wriggler today. I thought it was a microworm at first :p

 

Was an initial experiment to see if I could get them spawning. Not sure if I should remove the adults now and see if any fry make it, or leave them to it.

April 22, 2013
3:28 pm
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BigTom
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Spotted a few eggs scattered around now...

Freshly laid -

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/1972/sawbwaegg.jpgImage Enlarger

And a wee video of the fry -

April 22, 2013
3:46 pm
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mikev
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Congratulations!

Excellent video too!

Yes, the fry looks scary fragile.... I doubt they will survive in the tank with the parents... never saw this happening with mine and I have a lot of plants in the tank... the only way that works is to remove the eggs from the mop.

April 22, 2013
5:12 pm
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BigTom
Edinburgh
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Thanks Mike. Might have to free up yet more tank space somewhere... how long did you find before fry were large enough to be housed with their parents?

April 22, 2013
9:50 pm
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oaken
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Cool video, Tom. And congrats. What are you filming with btw?

April 22, 2013
10:05 pm
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BigTom
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oaken said
Cool video, Tom. And congrats. What are you filming with btw?

Cheers. Filming on a Panasonic GH2 with Olympus 35mm f3.5 macro. For the super macro stuff then I also add a Raynox 4x magnifier and use the ETC mode on the GH2 which only takes the center 1920x1280 pixels for an extra 2.6x mag... so gives up to 10.4x lifesize but with a maximum focal distance of less than a cm. 

Kinda tricky handheld and you're limited to subjects that are sitting on the front glass!

April 23, 2013
12:35 am
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mikev
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BigTom said

Thanks Mike. Might have to free up yet more tank space somewhere... how long did you find before fry were large enough to be housed with their parents?

2-3 months or so.

The fry can be raised in a 2.5g tank.

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