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Sphaerichthys spp.
October 27, 2011
1:30 pm
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Matt
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Ok so might as well sort out this genus while I'm at it with Parasphaerichthys. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

First question relates to something that still doesn't sit right with me even though we tried to resolve the issue in 2009. Is S. osphromenoides a maternal or paternal mouthbrooder? It's normally said to be the former, but this doesn't match with any other member of the genus, nor related groups such as Ctenops, Luciocephalus, Betta and the other three Sphaerichthys species, all of which adopt a paternal strategy.

Odd, no?

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October 27, 2011
4:29 pm
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Stefan
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Osp and sela maternal, the others paternal.

Edited my post; had them reversed - sorry.

October 27, 2011
4:38 pm
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Colin
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...not the other way round? having a confused moment???? /wacko.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wacko:" border="0" alt="wacko.gif" />

October 27, 2011
5:09 pm
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Stefan
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Yes, I remember a friend whoi worked with them long before I was born about it, and more recently as well.

October 27, 2011
6:55 pm
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Matt
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I was under the impression the traditional view is they're all paternal except S. osphromenoides, and that females are the more colourful/strongly patterned in all cases... /rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" />

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October 27, 2011
7:24 pm
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FKS
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At least for selatanensis the male are moutbrooding/paternal.

October 27, 2011
9:13 pm
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ste12000
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QUOTE (FKS @ Oct 27 2011, 08:07 PM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
At least for selatanensis the male are moutbrooding/paternal.

FKS, do you have data or evidence to prove this? with my old S.selatanensis the female broods the eggs.. I know this first hand after breeding them several times, several years ago.

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October 27, 2011
11:32 pm
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Matt
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How did you sex them Ste?

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October 28, 2011
12:05 am
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ste12000
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QUOTE (Matt @ Oct 28 2011, 12:15 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
How did you sex them Ste?

With great difficulty.. I missed the first spawning so at first was not sure which parent was carrying the eggs, this was confirmed to be the female in future spawns.. Plus the female was removed to another tank to drop her fry and the male proceeded to spawn with another female. It was 110% the female who carried the eggs and larvae.

Just observation really.. Males were very protective of the females once they were carrying eggs, both parents stayed in the upper corner under floating beech leaves and the male defended to imediate area.

My observations can be found here.. http://www.northtrop.co.uk/ the website will not allow me to link direct to the article but click the article link, then go into the 'other species' section. My article is number 13(both of them!!)

It suprises me that this is not already known, Horst Linke also states that both S.osphromoides and S.selatanesis are maternal mouthbrooders, he reports that S,acrostoma are paternal..I wish i had got some of these from Colin when he had them several weeks ago! im kicking myself that i didnt get any /sad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad.gif" />

October 28, 2011
6:19 am
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FKS
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QUOTE (ste12000 @ Oct 27 2011, 10:56 PM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
FKS, do you have data or evidence to prove this?


just from reports: e.g. Olaf Deters observed that the selatanensis shown on the picture (http://www.deters-ing.de//Allg.....sela_w.jpg) was not the one breeding the eggs after spawning.

October 28, 2011
7:46 am
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ste12000
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QUOTE (FKS @ Oct 28 2011, 07:02 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
just from reports: e.g. Olaf Deters observed that the selatanensis shown on the picture (http://www.deters-ing.de//Allg.....sela_w.jpg) was not the one breeding the eggs after spawning.

Hi FKS, do you have a copy of that report for my own use and records?? Id be very grateful for a copy.

For many years there was a great deal of confussion over the genus and its breeding, history shows many inaccurate reports, some said they were livebearing, others that they were bubblenesters

Han Joachim Richter recorded(and photographed for the first time) possibly one of the earliest accurate breeding reports of S.osphromenoides and this report from 1972(TFH) shows without doupt that the female in this spawn held the eggs making his fish maternal mouthbrooders. Both Richters, Horst linke's and my own reports all state that both S.osphromenoides and S.selatensis are maternal mouthbrooders, all three reports are from the breeders own observations, not simply hear say on a forum from someone elses reports.

Pretty conclusive??

Im completely positive that both S.osphromenoides and S.selatensis are maternal and reports from Linke show that S.acrostoma are paternal? i have no personal experience with S.vaillianti but a very good friend of mine here in the NW has successfully spawned and raised this species, ill ring him later for details and will update this thread.

October 28, 2011
8:05 am
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FKS
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QUOTE (ste12000 @ Oct 28 2011, 09:29 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi FKS, do you have a copy of that report for my own use and records?? Id be very grateful for a copy.


sorry. This is mostly based on personal communication as well as some short reports from various internet pages, e.g.
http://www.igl-home.de/forum/p.....BB2/viewto...18&start=15
http://www.maidara.com/Osphron.....nensis.htm
(you may use a translator)

Anyway, what we actually need is a series of pictures or a video of a spwaning pair clearly showing who brings in the eggs and who picks them up for moutbreeding. Finally, it is up to those saying these two sepcies are maternal to show evidence, because this breeding behaviour doesn't fit to the rest of the entire labyrinths community...

QUOTE
Linke show that S.acrostoma are paternal?

in accordance to Olaf's observations.

QUOTE
Pretty conclusive??

indeed. Should try to get some of these guys and have a look...

QUOTE
i have no personal experience with S.vaillianti but a very good friend of mine here in the NW has successfully spawned and raised this species, ill ring him later for details and will update this thread.

this is simply clear: paternal. And this time based on my own experiences (link)!

October 28, 2011
8:09 am
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FKS
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sorry...

October 28, 2011
9:21 am
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ste12000
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QUOTE (FKS @ Oct 28 2011, 08:48 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
sorry. This is mostly based on personal communication as well as some short reports from various internet pages, e.g.
http://www.igl-home.de/forum/p.....BB2/viewto...18&start=15
http://www.maidara.com/Osphron.....nensis.htm
(you may use a translator)

Anyway, what we actually need is a series of pictures or a video of a spwaning pair clearly showing who brings in the eggs and who picks them up for moutbreeding. Finally, it is up to those saying these two sepcies are maternal to show evidence, because this breeding behaviour doesn't fit to the rest of the entire labyrinths community...

in accordance to Olaf's observations.

indeed. Should try to get some of these guys and have a look...

this is simply clear: paternal. And this time based on my own experiences (link)!

Im sorry those two links are completely inconclusive and i trust my own observations far more than a simple ID web page with no concrete breeding evidence. http://www.maidara.com/Osphron.....nensis.htm

In this forum post http://www.igl-home.de/forum/p.....BB2/viewto...18&start=15
the main poster is 'Panda' and he states very clearly that his females are brooding the fry(over several spawns) making his fish maternal, you ignore this and quote 1 post at the end who states that his are paternal, this 'fryday' forum user provides no concrete evidence to back up his claims and only posts a 'poor' picture of a single fish.

Any person on the internet can spout 'accurate' information!! not many can back it up with personal experience, you seem to be ignoring the documented spawnings and clinging to several poor and unreliable internet pages!

Why take his word over 4 written articles in which it clearly states that both S.osphromenoides and S.selatensis are maternal..These are all personal observations with pictures of fry to prove that they have bred the fish. All state that they are maternal.

Everything quoted, by yourself, about the two species is unreliable and inconclusive.

In 1906 Julius Reichelt wrote that he thought the fish were livebearers, in 1948 Aaran Wold stated that his S.osphromenoides spawned under a bubblenest!!! it has already been proven that these observations were wrong, i myself have proved that S.selatensis are a maternal mouthbrooders and stand by my observations 100%, i do not doupt my own observations and do doupt your sources as they cannot prove otherwise with any information that is better than my own observations.

This group of fish has about the most interesting history of all tropical fish, i cannot remember a group of fish where so much mystery and myth surrounds it.. With the digital age we are in much closer contact with each other and information can be shared easily. However the internet and forums are awash with instant 'experts' who rely far too much on google and dont stand up as breeders or providers of accurate information in a face to face situation(ive lost count of people who are really knowlegable about breeding various fish while typing at a computer and then when we meet at a club or fishroom they actually know very little once prised away from the keyboard!).
Hense im afraid i require proof from established breeders to get to the bottom of such interesting discussions and i am standing by my own observations plus those of Linke and Richter(do you have these interesting articles?)

October 28, 2011
10:02 am
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FKS
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QUOTE (ste12000 @ Oct 28 2011, 11:04 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Everything quoted, by yourself, about the two species is unreliable and inconclusive.


so, show us your evidence...

QUOTE
people who are really knowlegable about breeding various fish while typing at a computer and then when we meet at a club or fishroom they actually know very little once prised away from the keyboard

I know. But in this case I totally trust Olaf. He is an expert and spread lots of Sphaerichthys over the country.

October 28, 2011
10:17 am
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Matt
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Ste, just to clarify, did you see the female laying the eggs then subsequently picking them up?

In what way does Richter's report definitively show the female to be the one brooding the eggs?

The IGL, Fishbase and Labyrintfisk.no websites state that males mouthbrood in S. selatanensis. In the IGL thread that Frank linked to the only person who had apparently witnessed the spawning event itself states that the female lays the eggs, then the male collects them. The picture posted is one of a female post-spawning, taken after the male has retreated with a mouthful of eggs. Look at the genital pore...

Frank doesn't appear to be taking anyone's word over another's in my opinion, merely that he has the same doubts I do about this species' reproductive strategy and indeed there remains no conclusive pictorial evidence. This is a discussion site, not a place people visit to discredit others' input.

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October 28, 2011
10:55 am
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Matt
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Some different images here (post #750). The brooding fish in the second image appears to be the same one as in the third, and the author says it's female...

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October 28, 2011
10:58 am
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ste12000
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QUOTE (Matt @ Oct 28 2011, 11:00 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Frank doesn't appear to be taking anyone's word over another's in my opinion, merely that he has the same doubts I do about this species' reproductive strategy and indeed there remains no conclusive pictorial evidence. This is a discussion site, not a place people visit to discredit others' input.

I appreciate that Matt, sorry to anyone that took offence, especially FKS. That was not my intention at all. However i feel my input has been discredited to a certain extent, by people who dont have the first hand experience that i have???

Ill finish with this thread now, its a subject ive studied indepth and have my own personal experences.. I tried to help the discussion and my passion was misinterpreted as aggression unfortunately(i have a bad habit of upsetting people online!!) i simply speak as i think.

Feel free to report what others say in your final report, i simply breed for my own pleasure and write to share my experiences with others. I only ever talk about my own personal observations and never lie or make up information.

I am 110% certain that my group of 6 S.selatanensis were Maternal mouthbrooders, the group contained 2 females and 4 males, in the first(reported) spawning i did not see the eggs being laid but did in subsequent spawnings.

I tried to help, but when i go back into my fishroom in a moment, i dont really care if people doupt my observations, next time a group becomes available ill breed them again and prove myself correct.

My own view.

S.selatanensis - Maternal (own observations)
S.osphromenoides - Maternal (Never bred these but reported by Richter and Linke as Maternal)
S.acrostoma - Paternal (Again no personal experience but Linke reports Paternal)
S.vaillianti - Paternal (Proven by FKS and my good friend Ray Blackburn)

October 28, 2011
11:04 am
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Matt
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Ste, there's no need to 'finish with the thread', it's interesting!

QUOTE
Ste, just to clarify, did you see the female laying the eggs then subsequently picking them up?

In what way does Richter's report definitively show the female to be the one brooding the eggs?

I asked these as genuine questions, not in any way designed to discredit you. Would still like to know the answers if possible. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Also, how did you sex your fish? I know you said it was difficult, but you must have used some characters to form your conclusions?

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October 28, 2011
11:11 am
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ste12000
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QUOTE (Matt @ Oct 28 2011, 11:00 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
In what way does Richter's report definitively show the female to be the one brooding the eggs?

He was about 5 inches away while it happened and is about the only person to cature and report a full spawning sequence. Plus he is almost without doupt one of the greatest fish breeders of all time..In my humble opinion of course!

All images by Hans Joachin Richter circa 1971-1972 TFH publications.

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