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Sulawesi Oryzias sp. and water.
September 12, 2011
1:51 am
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mikev
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another breeding observation possibly of some use.

From O.woworae profile:

QUOTE
There is another, very similar fish collected from close to the city of Kendari on the Sulawesi mainland and traded as O. sp. 'Kendari', O. sp. 'neon' or O. sp. 'Sulawesi'.

I have colonies of both O.woworae and O.sp.kendari, similarly set up, about the same number of fish of the same age. Till recently, both were kept at TDS=150. O.woworae were breeding for nearly three months, not a single egg obtained from O.sp.kendari, despite the presence of obviously gravid females.

I started raising tds slowly two weeks ago, and today the eggs appeared for the first time. TDS today reads 284 (I am aiming at 350, just doing this slowly).

So it appears that O.sp.kendari is more of a hard water species.

Another related observation: both of my groups were raised from eggs in soft (tds 150) water. While I did not lose any young fry, some of Kendari's had weak spines (Calcium deficiency?), but this did not affect any o.woworae.

I really doubt they are the same species....one more thing is that despite similar everything, O.sp.kendari group behaves differently, showing no shyness and mostly in front of the tank...O.woworae are always in the back.

September 12, 2011
7:29 am
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Matt
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I actually stopped doing that profile because no-one was able to clearly specifiy how the two are distinguishable from one another. I've a bunch of pics but still no real idea which refer to O. woworae and which sp. 'Kendari'. /rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" />

Mike, thanks a lot for the info though, slowly catching up after my hols and planning to amend the Sawbwa profile today.

Cake or death?
September 12, 2011
3:42 pm
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mikev
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I understand the problem...they do look very similar. Kendari's are a bit darker and the eyes are less blue - but this is not good enough for a profile and will not be good enough if I mix the fry.

September 12, 2011
6:42 pm
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kim m
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QUOTE (mikev @ Sep 12 2011, 04:25 PM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
I understand the problem...they do look very similar. Kendari's are a bit darker and the eyes are less blue - but this is not good enough for a profile and will not be good enough if I mix the fry.


When breeding, O. "Kendari" males get more purple than O. woworae in my experience, especially after they got older. O. woworae males are more dark blue.

I agree that harder water seems better for the Kendari-ones when wanting them to spawn. O. woworae seems happy in softer.

---------------------------- Best regards, Kim Kastberg
September 13, 2011
8:37 am
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Matt
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September 13, 2011
11:25 am
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Mark Duffill
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From what I have seen they could all be O. woworae for me /wacko.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wacko:" border="0" alt="wacko.gif" />

September 19, 2011
7:16 am
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Matt
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Cheers Mark. /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" /> Any second opinions? Also, if these are all O. woworae, can anyone provide a comparative photo of sp. 'Kendari'?

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September 19, 2011
4:47 pm
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mikev
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I think Mark is right... I'll try but I was not successful with photo'ing them so far (deficient skills and equipment /sad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad.gif" /> ).

October 22, 2011
7:54 am
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nuchal man
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I was wondering if I could get a confirmation on whether these are O. woworae or kendari. I got them from a researcher at UC Davis and they are in our lab here at Sacramento State. He thought they were true O. woworae, but didn't have a specific collection location from sulawesi. They were sold as O. woware "Blue Neon Ricefish", which threw me a bit. Sorry for the horrible photos and the dirty glass.

[Image Can Not Be Found]

[Image Can Not Be Found]

[Image Can Not Be Found]

[Image Can Not Be Found]

Thanks,

Sam

October 22, 2011
10:23 am
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Matt
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Hi Sam, they look like O. woworae to me. H-G Evers confirmed via email that in sp. 'Kendari' males have no red colouration on the belly, and females no red above the anal fin. Now we just need photos of it. /rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" />

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October 23, 2011
12:57 am
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nuchal man
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Thanks for the Id and the info. The new Oryzias profiles look nice.

October 23, 2011
8:37 am
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Matt
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Thank you sir. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

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November 6, 2011
10:01 pm
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mikev
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A friend of mine was visiting with a $1500 camera and took a few shots of Neons (Kendari), here. I'm linking the post rather than the photos since possibly a couple of other photos would be of interest too. The photos are unfortunately slightly underexposed, the fish is a bit darker. Matt, if you use them please credit "Taoyeah" too, without his equipment the shots would have not been possible.

November 7, 2011
10:07 am
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Matt
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Thanks Mike, you have some nice fishes - especially like the Etheostoma. /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" />

Is that a rainbowfish with spinal deformities inbetween the Corydoras shots?

Cake or death?
November 7, 2011
5:09 pm
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mikev
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Thanks, Matt,

There is more... but the fish I wanted to photo mostly did not cooperate or I could not clean the glass enough... his camera was very sensitive to smallest amount of dirt on the glass.

QUOTE (Matt @ Nov 7 2011, 09:50 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks Mike, you have some nice fishes - especially like the Etheostoma. /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" />

E.careulum's... I added another pair of them last week, huge (3") wild caught and took a careful look at the tank, which I have not done in more than a year (oops!). It seems that they grew quite a lot...and I actually had a full size female too... but there are two who are very small (1"), making me suspect that they spawned last spring. I need to figure out how they reproduce before spring or find a way to give them a 30g so they can do it themselves.

QUOTE
Is that a rainbowfish with spinal deformities inbetween the Corydoras shots?

Yes, "Skull Creek" Melanotaenia Macculochi. Born like this... Deformed, but very cute, perhaps I should breed him (and earn the eternal damnation)...

November 10, 2011
6:01 pm
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coelacanth
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Been looking at our two blue Oryzias forms since this thread started to try to develop an overall impression. Bear in mind that this will be subject to differences in lighting, nutrition etc., our two groups of fish get the same food, same water but are under different illumination.

The Kendari fish have very pale blue eyes, especially so with females (pic #4 may be a female Kendari). Males have little pigment in the pectoral fins even when fully adult. Adult males are shimmering blue, often with a red tinge to the rear half of the body, and the caudal trim is quite deep red (pic #3 and maybe #2).

Our woworae have rich blue eyes in both sexes, but the bodies are a "flatter" blue than the Kendari form, and do not show the red base colour to the rear of the body. The pectoral fins on an adult male have an orange-red flash, and the caudal trim tends slightly more towards orange-red (but darker than the pectoral fin flash). Woworae may also be more robust, our fish are pigeon-chested in comparison to the Kendari. If I had to say, my view would be that the rest of the pics show woworae.

None of our fish show the orange breast seen in two of the pics above, however.

A further caveat that the above is based on a fairly small sample, we have maybe 100 Kendari (all bred from one small founder group) and 30 Woworae (ditto).

Just to add further to the confusion, c.80 of our Kendari are in a 1m cube display, they are all young from our original fish, and when showing courtship behaviour they develop a lot of black pigment like many of the other Sulawesi Oryzias.

November 11, 2011
8:55 am
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Matt
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Any idea if your original fishes were wild-collected or not Pete?

Superb info by the way, think that at least gives me enough to sort a basic sp. 'Kendari' profile out. Is the reproductive process, incubation period, etc. exactly the same as for O. woworae?

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November 12, 2011
5:48 pm
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coelacanth
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QUOTE (Matt @ Nov 11 2011, 08:38 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Any idea if your original fishes were wild-collected or not Pete?

The Kendari definitely not, the wowarae probably.

QUOTE
Is the reproductive process, incubation period, etc. exactly the same as for O. woworae?

Not sure, we haven't noted the date of appearance of egg clusters.

November 14, 2011
8:36 am
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Matt
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Ok ta. /thumbs_up.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumbsup:" border="0" alt="thumbs_up.gif" />

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November 16, 2011
3:53 pm
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coelacanth
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Some eggs that were removed on the 3.11 (different ages, actual date of deposition unknown) have been hatching in the past few days (including some today), that gives a hatching time of at least 13 days @ c. 24 degrees C, it remains to be seen if any more come out which will extend the hatching time even further.

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