LOGIN

RSS Facebook Twitter YouTube
GLOSSARY       

SEARCHGLOSSARY

A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

PROFILESEARCH

Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





 

Minimum search word length is 4 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
TDS
January 12, 2011
9:30 pm
Avatar
JazzBora150
Veteran
Forum Posts: 195
Member Since:
December 21, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

are tds levels important in an aquarium

i have a digital tds meter and used it

got a reading of 24 x 10

ive no idea if this has any relevence in my aquarium

other parameters were

nitrite 0 ppm
nitrate 0 ppm
ammonia 0.25 ppm
ph 7.6

do these all look ok

January 12, 2011
11:17 pm
Avatar
Jarcave
Veteran
Forum Posts: 297
Member Since:
July 24, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

QUOTE (JazzBora150 @ Jan 12 2011, 09:13 PM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
are tds levels important in an aquarium

i have a digital tds meter and used it

got a reading of 24 x 10

ive no idea if this has any relevence in my aquarium

other parameters were

nitrite 0 ppm
nitrate 0 ppm
ammonia 0.25 ppm
ph 7.6

do these all look ok

TDS is important.

An ammonia reading of 0.25 is not good. Did you take this test after heavy feeding? Is this a new tank?

January 13, 2011
12:54 am
Avatar
JazzBora150
Veteran
Forum Posts: 195
Member Since:
December 21, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

yes it was done after a feed about 2 hours or so

what would a good level of tds be

how do you adjust it

yes tank is about 9 weeks old

January 13, 2011
5:56 am
Avatar
Plaamoo
Bellingham, Washington U.S.A.
Community Helper
Forum Posts: 1257
Member Since:
March 14, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Water chemistry in aquariums is complicated, I'm also trying to get my head around it.
I use my Total Dissolved Solids meter often. It measures the TDS but doesn't tell you what those solids are. You'll need specific tests for that. Measure your tap water, then measure your tank water and compare. Those numbers you posted don't make sense to me. Mine reads one number, I believe its PPM? My tap water comes out about 50, and my tanks range from 70-100. Depending on substrate, rocks, etc. and whether or not it's due for a water change. My water is very soft.
I use the TDS meter to test new rocks for leaching. When getting new fish I test the water in the bag and the degree of difference between bag water & my tank tells me how long & slow to acclimate them. TDS is relative to KH & GH and they to PH. Quick changes can cause osmotic shock, problems with the way fish regulate water in their system. This is just a bit of how I understand it's importance. If anyone cares to add please do and feel free to correct if I'm mistaken.

As Jarcave said there shouldn't be any ammonia present. Is your test kit a good one? Any changes to the tank that would affect the biofilter? Have you added a load of new fish?? I'd do daily tests and water changes to get that ammonia down/gone & hopefully the biofilter will catch up.

January 13, 2011
4:11 pm
Avatar
JazzBora150
Veteran
Forum Posts: 195
Member Since:
December 21, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

i think that my tds is 240 and my tap is 130

my meter gives me a 2 digit read out and it says on meter x 10 ppm

so im presuming that my reading of 24 is 240 and tap is 13 which therefore would be 130

ill start doing a small water change every other day

has anyone else got any suggestions

January 13, 2011
5:20 pm
Avatar
Plaamoo
Bellingham, Washington U.S.A.
Community Helper
Forum Posts: 1257
Member Since:
March 14, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

My first thought is that your rocks are leaching. Before I add anything like that to a tank, I put it in a bucket of water for a few days and monitor the TDS.

January 13, 2011
7:00 pm
Avatar
JazzBora150
Veteran
Forum Posts: 195
Member Since:
December 21, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

i wasnt aware that they would leech anything into the water

should i remove them?

January 13, 2011
8:58 pm
Avatar
Plaamoo
Bellingham, Washington U.S.A.
Community Helper
Forum Posts: 1257
Member Since:
March 14, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Not sure I'd go that far yet? I'm just guessing at the rocks. I'd like to hear another opinion? The difference of 110 ppm doesn't sound dangerous to me. Do you have KH & GH tests?

January 13, 2011
8:58 pm
Avatar
MatsP
Member
Forum Posts: 116
Member Since:
August 23, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

TDS is one of many components in water chemistry. It's easy to measure, and as long as the water is reasonably "natural" in composition, you can also tell if the water is likely to be acidic or alkaline.

Whether your 250 ppm TDS would be better at a lower level or not would depend on the fish kept in the tank.

--
Mats

January 13, 2011
11:33 pm
Avatar
Plaamoo
Bellingham, Washington U.S.A.
Community Helper
Forum Posts: 1257
Member Since:
March 14, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Mats, don't we need to take it a step further and determine what comprises the dissolved solids to relate it to fish in that context?

January 14, 2011
12:40 am
Avatar
Matt
Málaga, Spain
Admin
Forum Posts: 8239
Member Since:
June 13, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Good point Jim. Eggs of the Cualac tesselatus I have fail to develop embryos unless there are plenty of sulphates in the water, for example.

Cake or death?
January 14, 2011
6:38 pm
Avatar
Plaamoo
Bellingham, Washington U.S.A.
Community Helper
Forum Posts: 1257
Member Since:
March 14, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I've done some reading on this but it's complicated. From what i read, TDS is a very broad measurement and can comprise everything from fish waste to water conditioners to mineral content.

It seems the most commonly applied aspect of this in aquariums would be KH, GH, and their relation to pH. I know of at least one aquarist who uses TDS readings in place of nitrate tests to guage the need for water changes.

http://www.waterfiltersonline......s.asp#what

Where do Dissolved Solids come from?

1. Some dissolved solids come from organic sources such as leaves, silt, plankton, and industrial waste and sewage. Other sources come from runoff from urban areas, road salts used on street during the winter, and fertilizers and pesticides used on lawns and farms.

2. Dissolved solids also come from inorganic materials such as rocks and air that may contain calcium bicarbonate, nitrogen, iron phosphorous, sulfur, and other minerals. Many of these materials form salts, which are compounds that contain both a metal and a nonmetal. Salts usually dissolve in water forming ions. Ions are particles that have a positive or negative charge.

3. Water may also pick up metals such as lead or copper as they travel through pipes used to distribute water to consumers.

Some interesting reading on water quality & osmoregulation. I need to read it a few more times /wacko.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wacko:" border="0" alt="wacko.gif" />
http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/water.....stems.html

January 14, 2011
6:59 pm
Avatar
MatsP
Member
Forum Posts: 116
Member Since:
August 23, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

QUOTE (plaamoo @ Jan 13 2011, 11:16 PM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
Mats, don't we need to take it a step further and determine what comprises the dissolved solids to relate it to fish in that context?

Technically, yes. But if we are talkinga about whater that comes out of a tap in a home in Western Europe or North America (in the main), the water will be vastly controlled by Calcium and Magnesium Carbonate, which is GH/KH contributors. At least in all the water reports I've looked at, this is the case. I'm sure there are some areas that have "strange" water, but it's quite rare to find.

With regards to your long list of "what makes TDS", the minerals are the big contributor. If you have more than ppb of for example lead, you'd better have a chat with your water company and get your water feed replaced. Copper can dissolve in soft water, but very little in hard water, and certainly not to a level that makes any noticable difference to the overall reading for the purpose of determining whether the water is OK for a certain species of fish, from an overall TDS measurement - of course, if the water has a high level of copper in the water, it will be bad for fish (especially fry).

But it's correct that not ALL of the TDS is GH or KH.

--
Mats

January 14, 2011
8:36 pm
Avatar
Colin
Veteran
Forum Posts: 791
Member Since:
January 27, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

i use a TDS meter but only to test my RO/DI water to make sure it is working and I am getting 0 ppm.

TDS could mean anything - it could be 200ppm liquid gold or yoghurt for all the meter tells us.

It is only useful for making sure that water for water changes is as close to zero as you need it or that very sensitive fish such as the Betta macrostoma have as few containments as possible in the water. E.g. my macrostoma tanks sit at about 20ppm.

In regards to GH and KH my tap water is 1 and RO/DI water is 0 so it is nothing to do with that which makes my tapwater have a TDS of 70 or so

cheers

January 14, 2011
9:59 pm
Avatar
MatsP
Member
Forum Posts: 116
Member Since:
August 23, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

QUOTE (Colin @ Jan 14 2011, 08:19 PM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
i use a TDS meter but only to test my RO/DI water to make sure it is working and I am getting 0 ppm.

TDS could mean anything - it could be 200ppm liquid gold or yoghurt for all the meter tells us.

It is only useful for making sure that water for water changes is as close to zero as you need it or that very sensitive fish such as the Betta macrostoma have as few containments as possible in the water. E.g. my macrostoma tanks sit at about 20ppm.

In regards to GH and KH my tap water is 1 and RO/DI water is 0 so it is nothing to do with that which makes my tapwater have a TDS of 70 or so

cheers

GH/KH is 1ppm or 1 dKH/dGH? I guess the latter. Clearly when you have a LOW TDS, the components that are NOT GH/KH will have a greater impact - do you know what the other components are? In soft water, the water company often adds

Clearly, you'd see if it had 200ppm yoghurt (or at least almost) and gold is pretty rare in soluble form, so I doubt that is the case either. I can literally guarantee that there is no tap or well-water in Western Europe or North America that contains any measureable amount of gold.

But sure, technically, a TDS meter tells you NOTHING useful other than (using a meter) the conductivity of the water - if using the proper lab method (180'C drying and weighing the residue), it tells you a little bit more, but not a whole lot more.

The only way to actually know what is in the water is to measure and analyze every detail of it. Or at least the ones you care about.

I use the TDS meter when making water changes, to validate my mix of water and RO-re-constituing minerals. I also check the RO unit is working (I get 15 ppm, which is related to the facts that: 1) I live where the water comes out around 350-400ppm in the tap, 2) I don't have a DI unit - nor do I need one for the fish I keep).

--
Mats

January 14, 2011
10:30 pm
Avatar
Matt
Málaga, Spain
Admin
Forum Posts: 8239
Member Since:
June 13, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Moved into a more appropriate section. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Cake or death?
January 15, 2011
9:44 am
Avatar
Colin
Veteran
Forum Posts: 791
Member Since:
January 27, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Well, Okay... perhaps a bit too much satirical exaggeration on my part with reference to the water constitution. But, at least we agree that the only way to know what the actual TDS are is to test for them individually.

Incidentally, a couple of years ago I phoned my water supplier and asked for the full scientific breakdown of my drinking water. It was through a discussion with Matt Clarke (ex PFK) and he went on to start mapping the UK water qualities which was available online for a while (might still be there but I dont generally use the PFK site???).

It was interesting in that it specifically had the amounts of nitrate and phosphate as well as the usual pH etc. Unusually my water out of the tap is soft and alkaline. However, this is due to the buffers put in to stop the naturally acidic water corroding water pipes. Within a few days of vigorous aeration my naturally soft water quickly has a pH crash.

So, best advise might be to phone your water company and get their full water analysis?

January 15, 2011
9:48 am
Avatar
Colin
Veteran
Forum Posts: 791
Member Since:
January 27, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

This is what started it...

http://www.practicalfishkeepin.....hp?sid=142

http://www.practicalfishkeepin.....hp?sid=914

dont know what happened to the results? there was a map at one point???

January 15, 2011
10:33 am
Avatar
MatsP
Member
Forum Posts: 116
Member Since:
August 23, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Yes, I do agree that TDS doesn't tell you much in itself. However, in the vast majority of places, high TDS -> alkaline water, low TDS --> acidic water (at least longer term).

Further, TDS (or rather, electrical conductivity) is probably more important than pH for the fish's wellbeing.

QUOTE (Colin @ Jan 15 2011, 09:27 AM) < {POST_SNAPBACK}>
It was interesting in that it specifically had the amounts of nitrate and phosphate as well as the usual pH etc. Unusually my water out of the tap is soft and alkaline. However, this is due to the buffers put in to stop the naturally acidic water corroding water pipes. Within a few days of vigorous aeration my naturally soft water quickly has a pH crash.


Indeed. In hard water areas, the water company doesn't need to add these type of compounds, as the water is already alkaline, and thus don't corrode the pipes. The main reason for this is where there are lead-pipes, as the water company is responsible for replacing the public part of lead-pipes if the lead level goes too high.
This probably accounts for most of the 50 ppm difference between your hardness value and the TDS meter reading. Unless your water is also high in nitrate (phospate isn't allowed to be very high, so presumably there isn't that much in your tap-water).

QUOTE
So, best advise might be to phone your water company and get their full water analysis?


In many places, you can actually go to the website of the water supplier, enter your postcode, and get the water quality report.

And yes, I submitted the water report from my location a few years ago to the PFK "water mapper". I don't know if it's still there or not...

--
Mats

January 15, 2011
12:57 pm
Avatar
JazzBora150
Veteran
Forum Posts: 195
Member Since:
December 21, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

so let me get this straight

am i to presume then that TDS testing really tell you 2 things

so if the level increases that you either have to clean up the substrate or the water chemistry is changing and a water change is due

Forum Timezone: Europe/Paris

Most Users Ever Online: 246

Currently Online:
1 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Devices in use: Desktop (1)

Top Posters:

Stefan: 1567

Plaamoo: 1257

mikev: 1134

Malti: 1099

Mark Duffill: 1012

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 0

Members: 30501

Moderators: 0

Admins: 2

Forum Stats:

Groups: 4

Forums: 10

Topics: 4603

Posts: 36641

Newest Members: Talha, VelzevulGR, Eva, RoyC, Gilbert Fox

Administrators: dunc: 1323, Matt: 8239