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Unknown Pangio
March 26, 2010
9:28 pm
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Thomas
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Hi,

Bought some unknown (for me) Pangio today. The caudal fin has not a dark large blotch, so I would say they aren't P. kuhlii. Or could Kuhliis also have such a clear caudal fin?

[Image Can Not Be Found]

[Image Can Not Be Found]

Any ideas?

Attached files

[Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found]

March 26, 2010
11:22 pm
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Thomas
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Two other pics. Two other pics. The one in the front looks a bit similar to this: http://www.loaches.com/species.....-alternans

[Image Can Not Be Found]

This looks more similar to the one in the first post:

[Image Can Not Be Found]

Attached files

[Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found]

March 28, 2010
6:12 am
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Matt
Málaga, Spain
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Hi Thomas, very nice-looking. /cool.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="B)" border="0" alt="cool.gif" /> I don't think it's P. alternans as that species has a hyaline caudal fin but P. superba seems quite a close match. An image of the dorsal surface might be useful.

Saw some nice Cobitis sp. on sale here yesterday, miss my tanks. /dry.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="<_ <" border="0" alt="dry.gif">

Cake or death?
March 28, 2010
10:07 am
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Thomas
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Hi Matt, Here you can see the dorsal surface.

[Image Can Not Be Found]
No line on the top as I know it from P. superba. But you are right, in the Kottelat & Lim paper (1993) the P. alternans looks not similar to my Pangio.

[Image Can Not Be Found]
Pic is from Kottelat & Lim 1993

At the time they are small, ~4cm

Attached files

[Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found]

March 28, 2010
12:31 pm
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Thomas
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QUOTE
Saw some nice Cobitis sp. on sale here yesterday, miss my tanks. dry.gif


Without any name?

March 28, 2010
2:03 pm
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Matt
Málaga, Spain
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The guy in the shop didn't even know what genus they were. /tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" /> Your Pangio seems to be P. shelfordii group but are we stuck as to species?

Cake or death?
March 28, 2010
5:07 pm
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Thomas
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Sounds good, but I have no idea. There are so much Pangios I have never seen /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

I'm going to post the Pangios also on petfrd. Let us see what they say.

March 29, 2010
12:14 am
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Matt
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Hope we get an answer. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Cake or death?
March 29, 2010
3:27 pm
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Thomas
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We got. HH says it looks like P. shelfordii to him, but the shelfordii I have kept a few times ago looks not so similar.

P_shelfordii9.jpgImage Enlarger

P_shelfordii7.jpgImage Enlarger

But I don't know how widespread and variabel P. shelfordii really is. At least I would say you are right with the shelfordii group. That's great /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

March 29, 2010
8:23 pm
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Matt
Málaga, Spain
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They don't look like P. shelfordii I've seen before either Thomas but I have the same gaps in my knowledge as you - hopefully put that right when we arrive at the letter 'p' in the loach profiles! In the mean time if you do manage to get a collection locality/country it could help a lot. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Cake or death?
March 29, 2010
9:01 pm
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Thomas
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I will ask a bit around, maybe we get some info.

August 22, 2014
5:29 pm
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Thomas
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In light of current events I have to dig out the next Pangio thread.
What do you think about this?
http://evolution.science.nus.e.....GN921.html

Comparing with the first pic of this thread I would say this fits. Is it possible that the Pangios of this thread is yet P. alternans?

The link for the whole site, maybe not only for loaches usefull ;)

http://evolution.science.nus.e....._fish.html

Cheers,

Thomas

August 29, 2014
6:38 pm
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Matt
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Thanks for the link Thomas. Looks pretty similar doesn't it?

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May 1, 2015
3:15 am
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olly
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Hi all,

These beautiful Pangios were purchased recently in the size about 3,5 sm (the biggest). Now they about 5-6 sm. A storekeeper said that pangios arrived from the breeder in the size of bloodworm. In the same store tank there were P.myersi of the same size. I was unable to id the species of these pangios. They have some features of P.shelfordii and not. Their behavior has some differencies from the one of the P.semicincta: they always are on the bottom. I've never seen them to swim in the water or to hang from a bough of plants as P.semicincta.
Do they belong to individual species (what)?

Natural variation within a species?
Or artifitially obtained variation?  The result of longterm inbreeding? Strain?
Or the result of inter-species hybridization?

What do you think?

In the q-tank when they were smaller. Pangio-sp6.jpgImage Enlarger

 Pangio-sp8.jpgImage Enlarger

 

 Pangio-sp5-1.jpgImage Enlarger

 Pangio-sp9-1.jpgImage Enlarger

 Later.pangio-sp.jpgImage Enlarger

 Pangio-sp2.jpgImage Enlarger

 pangio-sp4.jpgImage Enlarger

 And now.Pangio-sp91.jpgImage Enlarger

 Pangio-sp92.jpgImage Enlarger

 Pangio-sp94.jpgImage Enlarger

 Pangio-sp95.jpgImage Enlarger

 Pangio-sp98.jpgImage Enlarger

 Pangio-sp99.jpgImage Enlarger

 Pangio-sp932.jpgImage Enlarger

 Pangio-sp992.jpgImage Enlarger

May 1, 2015
3:12 pm
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mikev
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Very nice, thanks for sharing

As a guess results of artificial breeding program that has been said produces several alternative patterns.

Whether hybrids or not is impossible to say, but notice that if one crosses "p.semicincta" from Indonesia with "p.semicincta" from Indonesia this may be inter-species hybridization! -- we just do not know enough.

Analogy (definitely understandable to anyone in the US and perhaps Europe too): a very common lfs offering is "Australian rainbow". All the batches are a bit different from each other, the fish is bred in Florida and was surely hybridized over the years (not intentionally, just sloppiness). They all have m.splendida blood in them and various additives, thus all look a bit different from each other.

I actually keep a group of them... mine look just like m.s.inornata and very attractive... I don't believe that they are pure bred, but since pure bred are not possible to find in the US, I don't care. I do warn people when giving eggs/fry not to pass them further as inornata no matter their appearance.

May 12, 2015
12:48 pm
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Matt
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Agree with Mike; something about the shape of those fish seems unnatural.Yell I will add a line about the availability of possible artificial hybrids next time the Pangio profiles are updated.

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