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Homaloptera confuzona, questions

Home Forums Fresh and Brackish Water Fishes Homaloptera confuzona, questions

This topic contains 0 replies, has 1 voice, and was last updated by  torso 4 years, 4 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 30 total)
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  • #302641

    olly
    Participant

    Hello everyone!

    Thank you very much for your knowledge base.

    I am new to this forum and English is not native for me. I have some questions about my loaches.

    I have homalopteras confuzona.  They live in my tank for a year and are one of my favorite fishes. Then they do not sleep, they are very movable, crawl in forage above the other bottom dwellers and swim. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r2aoWXbcRc 

     One homaloptera has put on weight from autumn 2012 and eventually became so thick that I began to worry about her health. Nevertheless, she is very active, eats greedily and when not sleeping, swims and likes to “dance” in the flow in vertical position on the tail. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEd-ivps7nM 

     I was unable to take a quality foto of her ventral side at the time, when  homalopteras sit on the front glass of the tank before feeding, because the flash light is reflected from the abdomen. It is impossible to take pictures without a flash, as homaloptera moves all the time. However, at some photos I see intra-abdominal yellow inclusions. What is it – fat inclusions or eggs?

    Thank you for your answer!

    Homaloptera-confuzona6IMG_8187.jpgHomaloptera-confuzonaIMG_9828.jpgHomaloptera-confuzona2IMG_9837.jpgHomaloptera-confuzonaIMG_8200.jpgHomaloptera-confuzonaIMG_9834.jpgHomaloptera-confuzonaIMG_9021.jpgHomaloptera-confuzonaIMG_8833.jpgHomaloptera-confuzonaIMG_9178.jpgHomaloptera-confuzonaIMG_9258.jpg

     

     

    #350356

    Rüdiger
    Participant

    Hi olly,

    certaily looks like eggs to me! But I’m not sure how it could be possible that she’s gravid since autumn last year without spawning inbetween? When first did you notice that she’d gotten this big?

    Regards

    R.

    P.S. Nice Videos and nice tank, if somewhat of an unusual community!! :-)

    #350361

    Thomas
    Member

    My experience with Homaloptera (now homalopteroides) smithi is that the eggs are gone after roundabout 3 months. Don’t know if they secretly have spawned or only resorb the eggs. This had happens at two different female.

     

    Cheers,

    Thomas

    #350362

    mikev
    Participant

    yes, seems gravid. Very nice, olly!

    With H.confuzona, females get very gravid and tend to stay this way for years (3+)…similar to kuhlis, actually. I wish we knew something about the spawning trigger….

    I don’t think h.smithi is closely related to h.confuzona…. I suspect h.smithi’s regularly spawn under normal conditions .. pretty sure i saw a tiny fry once in my h.smithi tank but was unable to catch it and it did not last ;(

    #350386

    Matt
    Keymaster

    Hi Olly, welcome to the site and thanks for the kind words. Smile

    Looks like eggs to me as well, and your photos are very good. Would you mind if we added one or two to the H. confuzona species profile?

    Edit: can loaches become egg-bound?

    #350392

    Rüdiger
    Participant

    @mikev said:
    yes, seems gravid. Very nice, olly!

    With H.confuzona, females get very gravid and tend to stay this way for years (3+)…similar to kuhlis, actually.

    Very interesting, thanks Mike. Never heard or read about that before. Never too old to learn something new! ;-)

    Regards

    R.

     

    #350393

    mikev
    Participant

    Very welcome… In my group (now down to 3 fishes after 5 or 6 years :( ) all females showed this… and there may be something to Matt’s suspicion about them becoming egg-bound.. I never saw them becoming thinner, and the lifespan of females might have been shorter too…

    #350516

    olly
    Participant

    Hello everyone!

    Thanks very much! You helped me to clear off doubts and now I’m sure that this homaloptera is a female with eggs.

    @matt said:
     and your photos are very good. Would you mind if we added one or two to the H. confuzona species profile?

    Matt, thanks. Yes, please do!

    @Rüdiger said:
    But I’m not sure how it could be possible that she’s gravid since autumn last year without spawning inbetween? When first did you notice that she’d gotten this big?

    Thomas said  they secretly have spawned or only resorb the eggs. This had happens at two different female.

    This homaloptera was slowly becoming stout from September through January with maximum in the beginning of January. Later in January – February, I noticed that she has become slightly thinner. However, I do not know, she spawned or eggs were resorbed. But now I see she again is becoming thicker. Here is a video-clip with gravid homaloptera, and in some moments it is really to see pale eggs in her abdomen.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY9LfFjtkJI

    @Rüdiger said:
     if somewhat of an unusual community!! 

    Yes, there is not a habitat community in my tank with gastromyzons. But homalopteras and gastromyzons proved to be kind neighbours. Gastromyzons adapted to the restlessness of homalopteras.  Sometimes gastromyzons in good spirits chase homalopteras :) , and otherwise. 

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ_veWfHx_8

    @mikev said:
    With H.confuzona, females get very gravid and tend to stay this way for years (3+)…similar to kuhlis, actually. I wish we knew something about the spawning trigger….

    It is nice and interesting. It’d be great for me to get confuzona’s fry. These fishes are very seldom in sale and I’d like to maintain this species in my tank for years.  To my opinion the ability to breed fishes in the tank and the dispersal of bred fishes in our hobby is one of opportunities to keep these species in nature. As for spawning triggers, it is may be temperature change as for some species of fishes. But I do not know anything about the effectiveness of this method for H.confuzona. Another method to get fish eggs is hormonal stimulation. But I cannot estimate the degree of maturity and readiness to spawning of the brood fishes  and I’m afraid to damage my favorite fishes during manipulations.

    @mikev said:
    I suspect h.smithi’s regularly spawn under normal conditions .. pretty sure i saw a tiny fry once in my h.smithi tank but was unable to catch it and it did not last ;(

    It is great! I have not met the information about breeding of H. smithi yet.  It is a pity a fry was not catched… I’ve read about successful collection of sewellia fry with the use of siphon for gravel cleaning.

     

    I think my another thin homaloptera is a male (????). After eating he sometimes becomes thicker, but in a day again slim. He is more aggressive than gravid homaloptera and pinch (or bite?) female all the time.  However, I see, such interaction is necessary for both and they enjoy the company of each other. 

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f90O7QPruQ8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQWKW-KRbuA

    And I have one more question…. What do features of sex dimorphism for H.confuzona exist besides this one: fuller-bodied females and slim male?  Thanks!

     

    If thin homaloptera proves to be a male I’d like to try to provoke their spawning in separate tank. 

    Fotos of another thin H.confuzona and both together.

    Sometimes after eating.

    Homaloptera-confuzona-after-eating2IMG_9126.jpgHomaloptera-confuzona-after-eatingIMG_9127.jpg

    Before feeding.

    Homaloptera-confuzonaIMG_9182.jpgHomaloptera-confuzonaIMG_8932-1.jpg

    and both together.

    female and male(???)

    Homaloptera-confuzonaIMG_9844.jpg

    male(???) and fuller-bodied female

    Homaloptera-confuzonaIMG_8901.jpg

     

    #350517

    Rüdiger
    Participant

    Hi olly,

    very nice photos again! (y) 

    When I said “somewhat of an unusual community” I was rather referring to I. werneri, P. furcatus, D. dario, T. ocellicauda and D. margaritatus in what looks like a rather turbulent tank. Just didn’t think they’d be comfortable with that kind of water movement. :-)

    Regards

    R.

    #350521

    Matt
    Keymaster

    Thanks a lot Olly, will do so now.:smile:

    I think that adult females tend to grow a bit larger than males as well as being thicker-bodied?

    #350523

    mikev
    Participant

    @Rüdiger said:

    When I said “somewhat of an unusual community” I was rather referring to I. werneri, P. furcatus, D. dario, T. ocellicauda and D. margaritatus in what looks like a rather turbulent tank. Just didn’t think they’d be comfortable with that kind of water movement.

    p.furcatus may be ok… I keep some rainbows in river tanks now and they tolerate it …specifically p.furcatus was not tried, but my sense is that it would work. Ditto for large p.signifer. But the other four species make me wonder. How long were they kept for in this tank?

    If thin homaloptera proves to be a male I’d like to try to provoke their spawning in separate tank.

    it is probably a male, but it is not obvious that setting up a spawning tank will help you. The only spawning success I heard about involved a large group of h.confuzona in a 125g rivertank. Probably 125g is not needed, but 30g would be the minimal size to try, and it would be better to have a larger group. And no tankmates (other hillstreams may be ok, but not the rest). Udachi!

    I’ve read about successful collection of sewellia fry with the use of siphon for gravel cleaning.

    I also collected some lh.disparis eggs and fry this way. But siphon only helps with species that spawn regularly… h.confuzona is clearly not one.

    #350837

    olly
    Participant

    Hello everyone!

    @Rüdiger said:
    very nice photos again! (y) 

    When I said “somewhat of an unusual community” I was rather referring to I. werneri, P. furcatus, D. dario, T. ocellicauda and D. margaritatus in what looks like a rather turbulent tank. Just didn’t think they’d be comfortable with that kind of water movement. :-)

    Rüdiger, Thanks! Sorry, I did not understand phrase.  I also think P.furcatus feel well in the flow, and it seems to me, they prefer to swim  in it. In this tank they were raised from purchased fry for another tank. The flow in the tank is directed along the back wall, its power decreases after meeting with another wall and plants on its way. In the center of the tank there is practically calm – T. ocellicauda, I. werneri, D.dario and D. margaritatus keep mainly here and all of them are visible. T. ocellicauda grew up in this tank from small fry. Practically all fishes live in this tank for more than one year. During feeding the pump is switched off. All dwellers have conditioned reflex on the switching off the flow as a signal for the feeding start.

     

    @matt said:
    I think that adult females tend to grow a bit larger than males as well as being thicker-bodied?

    Matt, thanks a lot. I measured the length with the ruler of gravid H.cofuzona and expected male on the photo where they are together at the back wall of the tank. The male is slightly longer than the female. When they have appeared a year ago in my tank, the female was thin and shorter than male. Yes, perhaps, the size can be taken into account in the case if fishes were caught being adult and of maximal size. However, caught fishes are often of different age and size, and when get into the tank, may stop growing. My female did not grow longer than male for a year, but became gravid.

    For the determination of sex of another hillstreams as sewellia and gastromyzons, it can be used such features as the length of the snout, the angle of anterior part of pectoral fins with the body, the shape of fish with pectoral fins from dorsal or ventral side. The snout width of schistura.   Do some these features or another work for homalopteras?

    @mikev said:

    it is probably a male, but it is not obvious that setting up a spawning tank will help you. The only spawning success I heard about involved a large group of h.confuzona in a 125g rivertank. Probably 125g is not needed, but 30g would be the minimal size to try, and it would be better to have a larger group. And no tankmates (other hillstreams may be ok, but not the rest). Udachi!

    Mike, Thanks a lot for your valuable advices! Unfortunately, it is not possible for me to fulfill all these requirements at the present time….. but I will try to follow. For the last month gravid homaloptera is stout but without any alterations.

    The information about spawning of h.confuzona is of great interest to me. Where can I read about this case of confuzona spawning properly? If it is possible. Thanks a lot. 

     

    @mikev said:

    I also collected some lh.disparis eggs and fry this way. But siphon only helps with species that spawn regularly… h.confuzona is clearly not one.

     

    It is a great success to get fry from loach, to raise them and get F2 fry. I have read the topic about lh.disparis with great interest.  I have never seen this species in our trade even as a contaminant.

     

    @mikev said:
    In my group (now down to 3 fishes after 5 or 6 years :( ) all females showed this… and there may be something to Matt’s suspicion about them becoming egg-bound.. I never saw them becoming thinner, and the lifespan of females might have been shorter too…

    Is it possible that old females with fully resorbed eggs (and so slim) can be among old H.confuzona?

     

    H.confuzona. Their amaizing barbels of different color.

    Homaloptera-confuzona_barbels2.jpg

    Homaloptera-confuzona_barbs.jpg

    Homaloptera-confuzona_barbels.jpg

     

    Homaloptera confuzona. Short keels at the end of scales are visible.

    H.confuzona-with-keels.jpgH.confuzona-with-keels2.jpg

    For smile.  

    H_confuzonaG.ocellatus_pyramid.jpg

     

     

     

     

     

    #350841

    mikev
    Participant

    Is it possible that old females with fully resorbed eggs (and so slim) can be among old H.confuzona?

    Not in my case, I watched the fish. However, I think it is possible. I have a b.almorhae female that became suddenly slim after maybe 4 years of being very gravid….darn!….such a lost opportunity.

    as for the Confuzona breeding story: it was never properly documented. there was a chap (a long-term fishkeeper who developed sudden interest in loaches) who posted on LOL circa 2007 who set up a 125g rivertank and put a few smaller species in it. He claimed that he got fry from confuzona and also s.balteata.. but never provided good info and then lost interest in loaches and switched to something else again. I think he was credible, but no proof.

    #350886

    olly
    Participant

    I would hope that my probable male is actually a male, but not old female with fully resorbed eggs. “He” is more aggressive than female: he chases a gravid female and sometimes gastromyzons.

    @mikev said:
    In my group (now down to 3 fishes after 5 or 6 years :( ) all females showed this… and there may be something to Matt’s suspicion about them becoming egg-bound.. I never saw them becoming thinner, and the lifespan of females might have been shorter too…

    Have females only dead in your group of H.confuzona? What do you think about the shorter lifespan of females H.confuzona: it is due to inability to spawn in the tank, development of cyst or another reasons?  My apologies for many questions. Your experience and your opinion are important for me. Thanks.

    #350887

    mikev
    Participant

    No, I don’t think there is any proof that the females have a shorter lifespan. Simply hillstream’s lifespan seems to be 6-8 years *on average* and I had large individuals to start with.
    I actually would love to collect some lifespan data on hillies… I think some species may be able to make 10 years (gastros, some sewellias), but more active (including confuzona) would have somewhat smaller lifespan.

    As an example: I have had my Sew01 group for 6 or more years…they arrived very large, so they are 8+ years no, with no losses yet. They have not spawned for 4 years but now the tank again has a bunch of fry. So I would guess the lifespan to average 10+. OTOH, I have a feeling that disparis is limited by about 5 (no proof, just observations on a large number, but not for this long). “About 6 for Confuzona” is what I was told by others long ago.

    And “more aggressive” does not always mean male with hillstreams. True for sewellia, opposite for disparis, and I did not see much difference in confuzona (albeit it is entirely possible that the male would be more assertive only during spawning periods).

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